Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Time now for some srs bznss regarding grinding in games, particularly MMORPGs.


tl;dr version: Grinding sux, your thoughts?

Now, I personally think that grinding ruins a game. I don't have fun while grinding; in fact, it's more like work than anything. The way I see it, it's nothing more than filler, and a way to keep people playing.

However, nearly all modern MMORPGs force the player to grind. In my brief experience with WoW, I found myself grinding to the point where the whole thing seemed to be a continuous grind, occasionally broken up by a few bits of good, solid gameplay. Yeah, you can do quests too, but those are usually just in the form of "Kill X amount of Y monster." Now, don't get me wrong, I liked WoW a lot, but I didn't like the fact that I was playing the game as a means, rather than just to play. That is, I got to the point where I was only playing so that I could advance further, in the hopes that at some point I would hit the level cap, where the game apparently begins for real. Of course, WoW's grinding isn't nearly as bad of a problem as it is in some of those Korean MMORPGs, like Flyff and Space Cowboy.

Thus, I'd like to see an MMORPG that somehow removes the grind. Richard Garriot's Tabula Rasa claims to have done this, but I've actually heard that TR has just as much grinding as any other MMORPG, and more monotonous grinding at that.

The way I see it, the easiest way to get rid of grinding is to reduce the importance of levels and money, the two main things for which players grind (I don't have as big of an issue with grinding for rare loot, since that's supposed to be hard to come by). All a level really is is a mark of how long the player has been playing, and the same can generally be said of money.

Well, I've ranted long enough, let's hear your opinions on grinding, and, more importantly, ideas on how to have a successful MMORPG without a grind.

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Sincerely,

Vitruvian Zeno

I remember hearing about some RPG that had battles like Oblivion, where people could capture and control whole cities and produce NPC armies for some RTS PVP action.

Anyone know what that one was? Sounded awesome.

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What's a grind?

Sorry, I don't play MMO's.

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Grinding is, in most cases, when you go out and just kill enemies over and over again for experience/money/loot.

Now, EVE Online, from what I understand, has removed the experience grind by removing levels and making it so that your skills increase over time, whether you're online or not. Not sure if people grind for money, though.

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Sincerely,

Vitruvian Zeno

Grinding is essential in some games. Case in point: Kingdom of Loathing. If you don't grind, you basically go nowhere fast.

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I think what VD (that is a terrible acronym) is trying to say is that grinding is essential in all MMORPGs, and he'd like to see one that doesn't. Really, though, isn't that the point of an MMORPG? I can't really see a way around it.

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Yeah, that's my point. I think that requiring the players to grind is lazy game design. Developers should either come up with actual content to fill that space, or make it easier to get to the next level of content.

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Sincerely,

Vitruvian Zeno

Oooh, like in that one South Park episode.

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I just can't fathom a way that this can work in an MMORPG. If you try to model it after a traditional RPG, it won't work because waiting in line to kill the Evil Master just takes the drama out of it. What were the parts you liked about WOW? I just always found it impossible to take anything as seriously as any "non-MMO" for some reason, storywise.

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Well, KoL has a good deal of grinding, but it's OK there because of how much fun the monsters are. But overall grinding is a real pain. I used to play Flyff and Maplestory, but I stopped because I got tired of grinding.

If you want a MMORPG without so much grinding, I'd recommend Guild Wars, especially Factions. You get to the level cap pretty quick because of high EXP rewards from quests. It also has the benefit of no subscription fees, and a henchman system so you don't always need other humans for a group.

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I don't like MMOs in general. If I ever designed one, I would probably do away with the level system entirely, and have everybody start on equal terms. You would be able to earn items, but they would be temporary. Death would remove any possesions you have and items may break if you use them too much. However, you could store items that you really want in a vault so they stay there even after your death. This would cost money though. That may sound a bit harsh, but come on, who in their right mind IRL is going to walk into battle carrying their most valuble possessions on their back?


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that wasting time grinding for 5 hours a day shouldn't be a substitute for skill.

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YOU COMMUNIST!

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Heh, speaking of that...

Squidi's thoughts on MMOs. Pretty good stuff.

Check out the rest of his site too. His plan was to make 300 original game ideas, 1 per day. An ambitious plan, although he sort of quit the project in a hissy fit after number 50 or so. Meh. Still fun to read, though.

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Actually, I think everything in WoW was fun, the first time. The problem comes in when you're forced into repetition.

The long and hard way to go about fixing this is to actually create enough fresh content to where a player can level up at a reasonable rate without having to repeat anything. This would mean, in the case of WoW, for example, lots more instances, actual, thought-out quests, and a world that would be both larger and more diverse.

On a bit of a side tangent about WoW, my deep underlying grief with that game is that, although there's supposedly all these epic wars going on between these factions, the world remains the same. I think what Blizzard should've done is made it into a persistent world; that is, there'd be an actual War in the World of Warcraft. As is, Horde-Alliance encounters only affect the players involved in them, and even then not all that much. I want it so that there would be actual battles for territory and resources.

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Sincerely,

Vitruvian Zeno

I think an MMO RTS game, if done right, could be amazing.

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I agree. I think it would be neat to see non-RPG game genres do MMOs. For instance, I think a MMO FPS could be great.

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Try Planetside, if you're willing to pay the monthly fee.

They had offered a free trial version a while back, and it was amazing. I think if I ever decide to start paying monthly for a game, it'll be Planetside.

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Sincerely,

Vitruvian Zeno

Half the reason I don't play KoL a lot is because of the grinding. Grinding sucks. A lot. It bogs down the game and makes it a lot less fun.

What I usually do with KoL is not play for like a week and blow my adventures on the Clan gym or whatever, because I'm seriously not going to waste my time clicking to gain experience.

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On KOL I don't grind, unless it's for meat. I usually do the Bounties and then I train my familiars while grinding for meat.

It'd be really, really good to see them get rid of it, but since I don't play that often, it doesn't bother me.

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I tried Planetside once, when it was free. Couldn't get it to work for some reason...

Nevertheless, it looks pretty sweet. I might buy it one of these days, but I hate games that charge subscriptions....

Actually, that's another thing that needs to change about MMOs. Subscriptions. They're using the crack dealer method: the buyer will always come back for his fix, no matter how much you charge.

(the only big subscription-free MMO I know of is Guild Wars)

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