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Goth Music/Poser Goth music
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Author:  Mr.KISS [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Goth Music/Poser Goth music
There has been alot of discussion in other topics recently about poser goth bands compared to real goth bands. Since it seems pretty popular, you can talk about it here.

Personally, I'm more into the early stuff that was only relativley goth (Alice Cooper and such). I still like the newer stuff (not Korn, bleh) but I prefer the particular feel of the older songs and bands.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:22 am ]
Post subject: 
korn isnt goth, Korn is Metal. also, im not sure if theres a difference in Satanic Rock or Goth rock, but Cradle Of Filth is a really good one of those.
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:49 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm into goth music *coughtheSTARTcough* and it's as real as it gets.

It's my blood spilling tonight...
And it's for good this time
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is a 101 guide. I've been in the scene for about 10 years... so here goes...

Real:
Bauhaus*
The Sisters of Mercy*
Christian Death (with Rozz)
Daucus Karota
Shadow Project
Skinny Puppy
Fields of the Nephilim
Joy Division
Cinema Strange (newer band)
Radio Scarlet (newer band)
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Bloody Dead and Sexy (newer band)
Alien Sex Fiend (they give a nod to Alice Cooper)
The Cruxshadows (newer band)
London After Midnight
Cadra Ash
Diva Destruction (newer band)
Godhead (can actually fit in the goth-friendly category too)
Rosetta Stone
Hocico (Industrial band from Mexico City)
Tones on Tail
Love and Rockets
Peter Murphy
Lacrimosa
Dead Can Dance
Fear Cult (newer band)
Das Ich
Paralisis Permanente (Really obscure band from Spain)
Extremanucion (Another Spanish Band)
*considered to be the Beatles and Zepplin of goth music

Goth Friendly:
The Velvet Underground
Rammstein
Zombina and the Skeletones
Depeche Mode after 1986
The Damned
TSOL
The Birthday Massacre
Ministry
The Germs
Tom Waits
Type O Negative
Collide
Non Butt-Rock era Alice Cooper

Poser (these are bands I've heard posers say are goth):
Marilyn Manson
Korn
Slipknot
As I lay Dying
AFI
My Chemical Romance
Evanescence
Cradle of Filth
The Murderdolls
Good Charlotte (I've heard it called goth...Image)
H.I.M. (goth friendly, but too many posers like em)
Any Nu Metal band...
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:55 am ]
Post subject: 
theSTART is okay... but they toured with Weezer... and Sugar Ray... eww... They remind me of a faster Siouxsie to a degree, but not quite goth. I wouldn't classify them as that. Not saying they are bad, but it's not necessarily fitting of the genre as far as sound goes.

Then again, I am not the be all and end all reference guide. I still do have my prefrences.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:57 am ]
Post subject: 
WOAH! any band that makes a Song or two about Cthulhu aint goth, that means that they have studdied up on it.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
WOAH! any band that makes a Song or two about Cthulhu aint goth, that means that they have studdied up on it.


What band are you referencing?
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:59 am ]
Post subject: 
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Not saying they are bad, but it's not necessarily fitting of the genre as far as sound goes.


Well, I hate the majority of goth music, even the so-called non-posers. They're all "BLAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGH! TEAR OUT MY HEART!"

Ew.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:02 am ]
Post subject: 
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
WOAH! any band that makes a Song or two about Cthulhu aint goth, that means that they have studdied up on it.


What band are you referencing?

Cradle of Filth
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Chestnut Roast wrote:
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Not saying they are bad, but it's not necessarily fitting of the genre as far as sound goes.


Well, I hate the majority of goth music, even the so-called non-posers. They're all "BLAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGH! TEAR OUT MY HEART!"

Ew.


I think you'd like Zombina and the Skeletones though. They are resemblent to the style of theSTART.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
WOAH! any band that makes a Song or two about Cthulhu aint goth, that means that they have studdied up on it.


What band are you referencing?

Cradle of Filth


Yeah. I figured. I just wanted to be sure. From what I have heard, Dani Filth is big into Lovecraft or something.
Author:  Mr.KISS [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:34 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Cthulu or whatever his name is now that songs that are just some dude screaming aren't all that hot. Sometimes they'll have good instrumentals (vocals should be a secondary thing in my opinion) which will make up for it, but alot of up-n-comers are just the generic screamer band.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 
KISS-Cringle 66 wrote:
I agree with Cthulu or whatever his name is now that songs that are just some dude screaming aren't all that hot. Sometimes they'll have good instrumentals (vocals should be a secondary thing in my opinion) which will make up for it, but alot of up-n-comers are just the generic screamer band.


Too true. Singing is incredibly important to a song, though. If it is just incoherent screaming about nothing (I never scream in my music unless it calls for it) than the screaming loses its overall effect of emphasising the power of the words being screamed.

Plus, the instrumentation is just as important. This is why I can't stand Slipknot because their instrumentation is unchanging in their songs. Mainly, it's one finger barre chords that anyone could do.

Take a band like Bauhaus for instance, their instrumentation is unorthodox in a lot of songs, but doing the sounds that they do is incredibly difficult. Another band with incredible instrumentation is The Mission UK. The variance of the progressions within the songs themselves provides a soundscape that touches on many feelings.
Author:  Funkstar [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Any Nu Metal band...


Pfft. **** you. Nu-metal hates goths. Nu-metal says "Hey mother-******s. Go to ****."

Trivium still rules. Goths suck.
Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Evanescence .... I find it funny that people would consider them goth.

Actually, I find it funny that people put them in any category.. They're one of those cross-genre band types.


I can't believe some of the bands in your "poser" category... Not that they AREN'T goth, but that they're even considered such.. Most of the pseudo-punk bands there can barely even be considered music..


For the bands I HAVE heard on the list, I never thought of them as Goth... I must have the wrong impression of what constitutes goth.. I was thinking an industrial/techno sound crossed with rave/trance is what makes up "goth"... I'm waaaaay off base.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Star - That was uncalled for. I don't believe that response was provoked.
Since I am 10 years your senior, I think I know what I am talking about.

Did I say it was bad?
No. Where did you pull that from?

Did I say it didn't classify in the goth category?
Yes. Because they don't. It's not an insult, it's a fact.

Do I have a problem with Nu-Metal?
No. There are some, albeit few (with how the genre's being marketed... talentless garbage has made it to the forefront mostly), that garner merit to me. I like Static X and Ill Nino. Dude, I saw both of them live, and it was a great show.

But then again, my tastes in metal are incredibly picky. My brother got me into Slayer and Ministry at a young age, so why would I even need nu-metal?

Goth's don't suck, people who don't pay attention to other peoples' posts do.

So, before telling someone to f--- off, pay attention. I'd actually give you that benefit because I'm a patient person.

StrongRad - I put evanescence in a category because there are a lot of "Evanescence goths." This goes with a quote I have.

[img]"A%20raven%20haired%20female%20lead%20singer%20does%20not%20a%20goth%20band%20make."[/img]

Even Amy Lee denies the classification.

You are right, poser-punk bands can't be considered music. But, you see this kind of crap around Hot Topic all of the time, so that is why it made the poser list.

Well, as far as your observation, some of the more recent bands have actually, there has been an integration of 80's era synth beats (Due to the influence of Depeche Mode.) A lot of what you hear at a hot topic mainly is highly techno influenced groups like Zeromancer. They're ok, not my type... Or remixes of other songs... I never pay that close attention unless something hits me a certain way. But, the genre has expanded quite a bit over the last 20 years... so, it's all over the board.

There is goth techno, obviously. Leæther Strip and Schwarz Stein count in that degree. But, the rave degree... not quite so much because there is only one band I can think of that uses turntables; Razed in Black. But turntabes don't constitute rave music.

Don't worry though, a lot of troglodytes still think goth music is just metal without giving at a second glance. That happens a lot where I live. I have the metal I like, but people need to pay more attention.

It can be said that synths from goth bands, 80's synth bands and industrial bands did more to influence trance than the other way around.
Author:  Funkstar [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
StrongRad wrote:
For the bands I HAVE heard on the list, I never thought of them as Goth... I must have the wrong impression of what constitutes goth.. I was thinking an industrial/techno sound crossed with rave/trance is what makes up "goth"... I'm waaaaay off base.


PRODIGY IS NOT GOTH!!
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think he was mentioning them. But, that's true.
Author:  Funkstar [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
I don't think he was mentioning them. But, that's true.

StrongRad wrote:
industrial/techno sound crossed with rave/trance
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think he was meaning Zeromancer and some other bands that get heavy rotation at Hot Topic some days.... not the prodigy in particular... maybe not even what I meant.
Author:  Mini Moose n gir [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
The cure is a good example of a goth band
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Very true. They did gigs at the Batcave in London way back in the day.
Author:  DESTROY US ALL! [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
korn isnt goth, Korn is Metal.

Korn is not metal. Black Sabbath is metal. Korn is Alternative Rock.

To me goth rock is really only completely summed up in one band;

ABBA.

I kid I kid, I really meant The Cure. All this speed metal and thrash isn't goth rock.

Goth is a german race of nomads, and a type of architecture. Not music.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
well, they just used the term goth for some reason or another. why not call em something else??? how about "Deppressiosos"?
Author:  Crystallina [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
How about Enigma? Speaking of trance-like...
Author:  Mistle Rose [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Chestnut Roast wrote:
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Not saying they are bad, but it's not necessarily fitting of the genre as far as sound goes.


Well, I hate the majority of goth music, even the so-called non-posers. They're all "BLAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGH! TEAR OUT MY HEART!"

Ew.


You haven't heard any actual goth music, have you?

Here's a pretty typical "down-beat" goth song;

Quote:
Instants that can still betray us
A journey that leads to the sun
Soulless and bent on destruction
Struggle between right and wrong
You take my place in the show-down
I'll observe with a pitiful eye
And humble ask for forgiveness
A request well beyond you and I
Heart and soul, one will burn (2)

An abyss that lasted creation
A circus complete with all fools
Foundations that lasted the ages
Then ripped apart at their roots
Beyond all this good the terror
The grip of a mercenary hand
When savagery returns
for good reason
There's no turning back the last stand
Heart and soul, one will burn (2)

Existence-well what does it matter
I exist on the best terms I can
The past is now part of my future
The present is well out of hand (2)
Heart and soul, one will burn (2)
One will burn, one will burn
Heart and Soul, one will burn


Heart and Soul, by Joy Division.

Here's a typical "Up-Beat" Goth song;

(Alien Sex Fiend-Ignore the Machine):

Sun arise come every morning
Sun arise come every morning
Bringing back the warmth to the ground!
I live in Siberia,
Through no fault of my own.
We're a blank generation,
In the danger zone
Paracidal slumbers from 7 to 23...
Only the blind follow me.

Abyssinia in the morning,
Breakfast in Berlin.
Oh!
You leave me dying...

'Cos everybody wants what everybody's got
And everybody's got what everybody wants
Soldier lies bleeding where a church once stood
Ignore the machine
Ignore the machine.

Couldn't get to sleep this morning
I watched the sky
I couldn't see
There weren't no warning
I watched you burn last night.

'Cos everybody's got what everybody wants
Everybody wants what everybody's got
Soldier lies bleeding where a church once stood
Ignore the machine
Ignore.

Everybody wants what everybody's got
& everybody's got what everybody needs
Soldier lies bleeding
Oh you leave me dying.

Everybody's got what everybody wants
Everybody wants what everybody's got
Everybody wants what everybody's got
& everybody needs.

Enigma is Ethereal. Generally Ethereal is given as a sub-genre of goth, but that's an obvious exception.

Quote:
Goth is a german race of nomads, and a type of architecture. Not music.


This is the 7th time alone this week I've seen someone say this. Do you realise how incredibly unoriginal, annoying, and frustrating you are in saying that? You say it like most goths don't hear it at least 200 times a month.
Author:  Mistle Rose [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
DeathlyPallor (HUMBUG!) wrote:
Here is a 101 guide. I've been in the scene for about 10 years... so here goes...

Real:
Bauhaus*
The Sisters of Mercy*
Christian Death (with Rozz)
Daucus Karota
Shadow Project
Skinny Puppy
Fields of the Nephilim
Joy Division
Cinema Strange (newer band)
Radio Scarlet (newer band)
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Bloody Dead and Sexy (newer band)
Alien Sex Fiend (they give a nod to Alice Cooper)
The Cruxshadows (newer band)
London After Midnight
Cadra Ash
Diva Destruction (newer band)
Godhead (can actually fit in the goth-friendly category too)
Rosetta Stone
Hocico (Industrial band from Mexico City)
Tones on Tail
Love and Rockets
Peter Murphy
Lacrimosa
Dead Can Dance
Fear Cult (newer band)
Das Ich
Paralisis Permanente (Really obscure band from Spain)
Extremanucion (Another Spanish Band)
*considered to be the Beatles and Zepplin of goth music

Goth Friendly:
The Velvet Underground
Rammstein
Zombina and the Skeletones
Depeche Mode after 1986
The Damned
TSOL
The Birthday Massacre
Ministry
The Germs
Tom Waits
Type O Negative
Collide
Non Butt-Rock era Alice Cooper

Poser (these are bands I've heard posers say are goth):
Marilyn Manson
Korn
Slipknot
As I lay Dying
AFI
My Chemical Romance
Evanescence
Cradle of Filth
The Murderdolls
Good Charlotte (I've heard it called goth...Image)
H.I.M. (goth friendly, but too many posers like em)
Any Nu Metal band...


You left out some of the important 90s-00s bands; there are some great ones. Faith and the Muse are incredible, as are Rhea's Obsession, and Switchblade Symphony is a great "modern" take on more traditional goth.

I don't like the Beatles and Led Zepplin analogy. It sounds like this came from soemwhere on Goth.net(their webmistress and many other people there, they are so stuck up and frustrating, they opposite of kiddie poseurs and worse since they're doing it on purpose).

The Sisters only had one traditionally "goth rock" album. I would agree with Bauhaus, but I think the Beatles/Led Zepplin analogy is

The main three players were Siouxsie Sioux, Joy Division and Bauhaus, who were all "post punk", though Siouxsie would define herself more as a traditional punk. Their music, while the arists may disagree, they can't change the fact that they played at the batcave and hung out with "goth"heads, is considered goth as well as post-punk, as goth is an offshoot of post punk, often combined with electronica, movie soundtrack-style music(Switchblade Symphony) and traditional "gothic" organs and choir style music.

Christian Death started the first sub genre of Goth - the aptly named Death Rock. Death Rock encorporated more hard rock elements(Though not always; I'm not quite sure why Cinema Strange are considered Death Rock though the have the same vibe), had far more bizarre vocal stylings and have a distinctive beat that sounds like a more refined version of an 80s cheese-metal/pop one, and often somewhat synthetic. It's usually quite "muddy" in sound as well as having a gritter version of the cold "graveyard" like edge found in much goth music(eg. taking the normal guitar "ambience" found in many Bauhaus and Joy Division like songs and turning up the crunch), and was a big influence on the later "grunge" movement of the late 80s and early 90s.
Author:  DeathlyPallor [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Rosalie - I made myself aware of that after I looked at the list. I was only looking through a brief part of my CD collection. Switchblade Symphony actually has a huge influence in the way I do my synth work. I didn't say the list was complete.

Another band I forgot to mention was Fields of the Nephilim. They instrumentation went all over the place, and had an airy landscape to their composition. One example of this is the song Sumerland (What Dreams May Come.)

The Sisters helped drive home the dark-psychedelica tinged edge of it, and are obviously influenced by the Velvet Underground. They also set structure for many of the modern traditional goth bands, although Andrew Eldritch hated the association (my note to him... get over it, you egomaniac!). Definite proteges of the Christian Death/Sisters school of it are Diva Destruction and XIII Stoleti (another good one I forgot to mention). They used the harder rock aspects put a passion behind them that is seen in a lot of other bands within the genre as well.
Also, Diva Destruction's use (an not abuse) of guitar crunch adds a great accompaniment to the howl and wail of traditional ambient flange and echo effects (as seen in Bauhaus's work). It makes their sound very brooding, dark and melodramatic. Their guitar crunch is more resemblent of what you see in Christian Death's first album (i.e. Deathwish; one of my favorites).

Goth.net stole that analogy from somewhere else. I'm not positive where it came from, per se, but I saw it there too. Gothic.net is worse about their snobbery. Not only are they like that, but they have the mentality of Ann Coulter by means of Rush Limbaugh to boot. I don't like it, either, I only used it so people who are unfamiliar with the genre would understand their importance.

The face of it now can actually pull from all, or some of these bands.

I'm glad someone else is knowledgable on the subject as well. I knew I forgot some points. Thanks for covering them.

Quote:
This is the 7th time alone this week I've seen someone say this. Do you realise how incredibly unoriginal, annoying, and frustrating you are in saying that? You say it like most goths don't hear it at least 200 times a month.


I'm glad someone finally rebutted that!

Quote:
Well, I hate the majority of goth music, even the so-called non-posers. They're all "BLAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGH! TEAR OUT MY HEART!"

Ew.


The only song that even references that that I can think of off of the top of my head is Chord of Souls by Fields of the Nephilim.

Plus, you said you were into goth music. How can you say that then immediately within the same day say otherwise?
Author:  Rhin Beoulve [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Let's not be confusing goth with emo, peeps. Many of the bands mentioned as "poser goth" are just emo bands, or even *shudders* screamo. Emo bands are not poser goth bands, but rather tone-deaf angsty suburban rich kids singing about how much their lives suck.
Author:  Encountering Gremlins [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Mistle Rose wrote:
Heart and Soul, by Joy Division.


Props for quoting that song. Such an amazing album, Closer is.

I've always associated "goth" as more of an image-describing term rather than an actual music one, but that's just me, since terms like that kind of limit what a band/artist is all about IMHO (The Cure, for instance, have had quite a varied career over the years). But I pretty much agree on the terminology, as well as who fits into this category and who doesn't.
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