Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

And I am an intelligent Christian, which means I am neither Democrat or Republican.

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I personally am not a big fan of party politics or labels that are supposed to tell us about someone's beliefs. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Why should we label people?

but anyway, TOASTPAINT!!!!

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BTG, I didn't say there weren't any Democrat Christians or Republican atheists here, I just commented on how many Democrat atheists there were.

I thought you had given up on religion, though?


>_>

<_<

...

Well, I laughed.

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beautiful, thats my new motto,
"Even a Broken Clock is Right Twice a day"

thanks DGS

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You're welcome. *takes bow*

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OK, now that's just rediculous. That's pretty much the equivalent of this Dilbert comic... (transcript only, sorry)

JURY SELECTION

Guy: Your honor, it is against my religion to judge others. Only God may judge.

Judge: You're excused.

Other Guy: Ooh ooh! I just changed my religion!

Guy (thinking): Jerk.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

Yes, it's ridiculous, but it happens...

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I wasn't raised one way or the other. My parents are pretty much nonreligious and never talk about it. I decided myself that I was an atheist.

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Being the rebellious, intellectual, New Yorker I am, I've never really believed there to be some all powerful being who will smite you if you sin. However, my opinion is much more complex than that.

About two years ago I didn't want to have my bat mitzvah, because I pretty much didn't care about Judaism. It was all out boring. I had to have a meeting with one of the rabbis, who told me something that I'll never forget: You don't have to believe in God to be Jewish [in reformed Judaism at least ]. I thought about this a lot, having ended up having a bat mitzvah anyway.

And do you know what I came up with, from careful consideration of my rabbi's words? God is a medifore. A medifore for ethics. A medifore of morality and justice. It's not somethingthat is supposed to frighten or punish people, but something to disiplince and teach people. The modern, stubborn, sticks-to-their-opinion and will listen to nothing else, atheist always seems to be looking for scientific proof that a god-like being exists; that there needs to be hard evidence of God's existence. But have they ever stopped and thought about God in a poetic sense? It doesn't seem that way to me.

God is merely a symbol of hope, good stuff, and whatnot. But that's just the take from some 14-year-old Jewish girl.

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*bows down*

You're my new hero.

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This is a perfectly valid observation.

However, unlike some kind of cookey "Goth" religion/Wicca "variant" they'll NEVER grow out of it.

I find it annoying that atheists almost never admit to any fault. I know, I'm generalising, you're not all like that, but a heck of a lot of you are. You're imperfect. So am I. I just wish people would own up to it a bit more.



Wow, that's a really intelligent way of looking for it. And most the hardcore atheists I've run into don't care about things like poetry(except from a purely academic aspect), or philosophy, or any evidence of the human soul.

My problem with atheism is that I was raised so strongly as a Christian that there is no doubt to me that God exists as an all-powerful deity. I've always been stricken with guilt whenever I do something even remotely sinful, and it makes me sad to see atheists who won't accept the possibility of God, and won't go to heaven.

The thing is, I haven't exactly followed my parents' beliefs word-for-word. There was a time, about a year ago, when I was contemplating giving up God and church, just because I couldn't go with the guilt of not following His law. Unfortunately, my subconscious belief in God's will wouldn't let me ever accept that God doesn't exist, and I am thus a very passionate Christian, as always.

I wish everyone could be a Christian, so we can all go to heaven someday (HRWiki Heaven Convention?), but I can see a reason that a lot of people decide not to follow the path of God: Sinning. Everyone has done it, and I'm sure most have enjoyed it. I'd be willing to bet that there is a undermining, hidden greed inside everyone to simply be able to sin and get away with it.

I've overpowered it, by the way I was brought up. My parents formed an unshakeable belief within me, and I haven't been able to remove it, though I can alter it.

It's because of all this that I don't think anyone will ever be converted on this forum, unless someone with an open mind, whose family never had any particular religion, went through a period of wondering about the meaning of life, and stumbled upon Didymus's pwnings.

Which is pretty much the reason that I get so sad when I see someone proclaim their atheism here. I want to like you! I want to be your friend! But it's so hard if I know I can never try to save you! Waaaaaaaaaaaagh!

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Good thing I'm one of those people

Seriously though, I've been having some intense wonderings about the meaning of life, and I've actually had doubts as to wether or not my strong held beleifs (or lack thereof) have been right all along.

Not even my closest friends know about said confusion. Why do I choose to inform almost-complete strangers? Because you're cool like that.

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But the problem with that is that not only is it a very negative outlook, it's not your beliefs. You had them forced into you...



Thank smeg :/



Howso?


Hmm.



I don't like the outlook that only Christians can go to heaven. It doesn't matter how kind hearted or bad minded you were, just how much you accepted God? I don't get how that's far. A test of faith? But that could just as easily be called a test of gullibility...




Actually, I Just believe in a different God.



I don't believe in sin, because it very often "Makes up things" that are right and wrong without a logical base. I believe that it's logically possible to determine right and wrong in a given scenario, going on the principles that some things hurt people and some things make them happy.



You can't really form a belief in someone else. It should be your belief and yours alone.



Much of his "Pwnings" seem to be concerned with denouncing my God(s) as a false one :/ And not in the typical Christian way, I've been back-post-searching and found a couple of offensive ones which were basically opinion-as-fact type affairs, though I probably misread.

But, anyway, my point is that everybody's teachings have some inherent flaws, and your own will be put on top of that. THerefore, it's best to come up with your own in the first place. The more second hand beliefs become, the more flawed they become.



Why can't you just like people for who they are? I'll admit atheists make me feel uncomfortable, as being around someone who believes so definitely they cease to exist after they die (Since, you know, you can't just not believe in a god, you have to not believe in anything at all to be a REAL atheist) is strange. The fact that someone can deal with that and not go crazy is quite amazing, especially since simply "quencing" an observer defies all logic and is an incredible leap of faith since we have no idea what sentience or how conciousness works.

But anyway, if it upsets you that much, why don't you alter your beliefs a little? Personally, I believe there's one huge afterlife made up of all sorts of little afterlifes made up of people's perceptions that have become solid after time.

In a sense, there is nothing when you die - nothing but a point of view, an observer; which has little but an identity, based on who they were in life. But slowly and slowly as more people return to this "nothingness" from whence they came, they bring more and more identities which shape the world around them, and it all melds together to create whole worlds.

It's a very comfortable belief, because that way even if you go to a seperate afterlife, you can still visist. I think that Gods and spirits shape these afterlifes too. There probably is a heaven, but it's only one of many afterlifes that are interconnected.

[quote="geekz0r"]For example, in the book of Genesis it says God created man out of dust. As molecules and atoms and such were not heard of at the time, they could only explain the tiny particles as 'dust'. /quote]

If the bible is God's words, as you said, and if he cretaed the whole world, then he created scientific laws and such. That means he'd know that it wasn't dust, but it was really atoms and molecules.

I don't get why people completely don't beleive in science, and compeltely beleive in religion, where there's no proof in religion, only speculation and stories, and there's a lot of proof in science.

Why would we beleive something that makes no sense over something that makes a lot of sense. I don't get where people get that.

Um, nobody "completely disbelieves" in science. Faith and Science are often two different things that need not contradict each other.

And it's down to perception of reality, too.

Here's how I see it. The bible is not meant to be taken literally. God probably didn't make women out of one of adam's ribs. He probably didn't make the earth in 7 days, they are stories made to prove a point about god and faith. The old testament is basically a book of metaphors and lessons, not meant to be taken seriously in anything but their meaning. The big bang, evolution, and most everything can coexist with the bible so long as you don't take the bible too seriously. I mean really, if god is so omnipotent, why does it take him a week to make the universe? It dosn't. He makes the big bang happen, so as to make the universe. You guys really can't seem to find a middleground, can you?

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Sister, now that we're grieving
Our fingers will falter
Our lungs will be leaking
All over each other and without even speaking
We'll know that it's over and smile and go greeting
Whatever comes next

I don't see it as a negative outlook, but I find it hard, at times. One could say that my beliefs were forced upon me, but by now I can't do anything about it. It's like molding a clay pot, once you make an impression in a particular place, you can't change it. You can cover it up, try to make it look pretty, but not fix it. I don't know where I'd be if my parents let me choose my religion for myself. The God of the Christians makes perfect sense to me, and answers most of my questions. I, for one, would love to see how I would turn out in a family with no religion. I can only hope that I would turn to Christianity anyway.


Simple sins and the thought of future temptations, really. I didn't want to have to think about a punishment in Hell. But I couldn't shake off my belief of God.


You make a very good point, but God's requirement for heaven is that you take him into your heart, and trust only in him. As for faithful followers of Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, Judaism, and other religions, I don't think they will necessarily "burn in Hell" (in fact, I believe that the God of Jews and the God of Christians are the same, and both religions send the followers to the same place). This is, however, one point of my religion I am confused about. Where do others go when they die? In my head, those who "burn" are those who break the Ten Commandments blatantly, and refuse to ask for forgiveness.


Then you must not be one of those people.


To me, sin is the "wrong" things a person can do. I think someone of different thoughts could easily live a relatively sinless life, if they just follow their morals. However, God has taught us that we are all sinners, and we must ask for forgiveness at some point in our lives. Maybe the "good" atheists will be given a second chance, in some kind of reincarnated form. I really don't know.


It is my belief, really. All my parents showed me was God, Jesus, the Bible, and church. I formulated my beliefs from what I learned. My parents haven't needed to talk to me about religion in years (although I don't exactly confide in them about this subject).


You may be misinterpreting his call upon the words of God and Jesus as his "opinion". Maybe you should talk with him about that.


I've more or less come up with my own, and as Didymus is a Christian pastor, I was using him as an example.


I like 'em fine, it just keeps me uncomfortable.


...

I can't just go off and "alter" my beliefs right off the bat, you know.


Technically, I could go after you for spouting "opinion-as-fact" sort of things. To me, heaven is a paradise and a mystery, that God will reveal to us when it is time.


See above.


God did not write the Bible, his disciples did. He knew what they would eventually be called, but he couldn't exactly tell those who were writing his book "Hey, put those down as "atoms" and "molecules", a'ight?", could he?


Science and religion are completely different subjects. I doubt you know too many people who don't believe in science at all.


You're confusing yourself. It's not as if every Christian wants nothing to do with science, that just doesn't make any sense. If you're referring to the doubt over "the Big Bang", you must admit how highly improbable that entire event is.

EDIT: Toppins just summarized most of my beliefs about Genesis for me. Most of what he said is what I would say.

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Time for my one-fifth dime:

I'm not going to judge anyone for their beliefs, but I have to make a quick observation: Religion is on the decline. You hardcore religious people may not want to believe it, but it's true. Fewer and fewer people hold to their religion as strongly as they did a couple hundred years ago.

Granted, it keeps a lot of people on the right moral track, but with science challenging many religious views, people have an alternative. I'm not saying that science is correct, or that religion is wrong, but simply that the alternative is there. The church, at least in most first-world countries, has no power, and can't force anyone to believe a certain way. I'm no psychic, but looking at the rapidly growing trend of atheism, I wouldn't be surprised if a hundred or so years down the line atheism's the norm.

You're simply calling religion a "trend". There's no basis for that, whatsoever. If anyone is forming their beliefs over a trend, then they aren't really true with what they are saying.

And I'd be willing to bet that the Rapture will happen long before "atheism becomes the norm".

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If I wasn't raised as a reform Jew, I would definitely have been an atheist by now. It's not like they ever force any beliefs and such on you (I didn't realize I didn't have a talis on my bat mitzvah until a couple months after), but it's quite the opposite. Like I said, I developed the whole concept of God being a medifore as result of the open-mindedness of my religon. My life has always been based on morality and doing the right thing.

I can't remember it exactly, but the head rabbi at my synagauge made this excellent sermon about the mixing of religon and politics on Rosh Hashannah (Jewish New Year). It was pretty much a combination talking about antisemitism, being open-minded, and ethics. You had to hear it to get it.

Anyway, my point being, the God represented in Judaism always seems to one of ethics and forgiveness, as opposed to the punishing one in Christianity. I know I haven't been to any other religous services, but whenever I hear about Him being our Sovreign, leading us out of the land of Egpyt, and especially "On that day the age old dream shall come true. On that day Your name shall be one and the world shall be one," or something like that, I think about how God is supposed to represent all that is good. I mean, when my Hebrew school teachers always say "Everyone is created in God's image," does that mean everybody has the ability to smite each other, or does everybody have the ability to be a good preson?

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Rosalie, I've been thinking for a bit about this statement. I don't think it's credible at all. You're making it sound like parents shouldn't do anything at all for their children's religion; just let them sit there while they go to church or the synagogue or mosque or whatever. "Secondhand" beliefs are the reason religion still exists. If someone isn't in tune enough with their religion to argue (because they didn't go farther than what they learned from their parents), that doesn't mean they can't be saved. They just shouldn't be arguing.

By the way, who exactly is "smeg"?


I always took it literally, and thought that we have a form similiar to that of God. It was supposed to distinguish us from the not-sentient animals. But it could just as easily mean the ability to think, to reason, to love, and other stuff like that.

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I have given up on organized religions, they are too constrictive. I believe in God, I am just not going to church to say so.

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And what if you hadn't...?



Why does a belief in God warrant a belief in hell? Why does a belief in a fairly plausible concept warrant a ridiculous amount of baggage?



Whoa, that's ALL They showed you? The like showed you pretty much everything and you formed your beliefs on only that?



This is getting a little into crazy territory. If he thinks my Gods are fake, that's his opinion. Just because he claims to be the voice of God doesn't change that.

I also despise the way that so many of those types of people will tell me my Gods are trickster Demons. Not angels, not "Lesser Gods", not helpful spirits, but DEMONS. AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL!!!1 It says a lot about the downsides of Christianity to me, really. Some people Always jump to the worst, most evil case scenario when it comes to things they don't understand.

Did you know that the very first edition(Well, earliest known) of the Bible did mention the existence of other Gods?



And why not, exactly? If something doesn't make sense and makes me feel uncomfortable, that's sure as hell what I do.



No, that was just my view, and certainly wasn't something I was pushing as fact. It just seemed to me as the most logical way an afterlife could exist, though I've almost definitely over complicated(or perhaps oversimplified) it somehow.



That means there is room for human flaw, and that makes the bible imperfect.




That worries me. An increase in Atheism, if the common guy in the street is an atheist, will lead more and more to a "Why should I Care" materialistic attitude. I think it's nice that people have something to believe in. Most people can't really handle atheism.
Atheism will become the norm not by atheists forcing their beliefs on others, but by mocking religion until they're forced to change their beliefs to survive in social situations.



Well, pretty much, yeah. Why should I "Pass on" my personal beliefs? It doesn't make sense. I'd rather hear what my kids have to say than attempt to force them to think a certain way.



Incorrect. People should be presented with many alternatives and allowed to choose and research from those. Parental "Influence" generally only causes pain.

I disagree, there are a number of people who completely disbeleive anything realted to scie3nce. It's crazy.

Change is a hard thing for most people. Especially something as imbedded in you as beliefs that you've known since you could understand stuff. Or something.

You should never out rightly assume people can do the same things you can.

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It only mentions false gods, such as Baal that other cultures worshipped.

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No, that's current versions. There are other versions of the bible that mention "Gods" leading to a very confused read, which is probably why they were later removed. But it makes you wonder which was right/wrong.

And I'ma lmost definite there was a female God, can't remember the name rightn ow, that gets a mention, either that or she was "omitted".

Nonetheless, I Still dislike "My God is real, your gods are fake, and it's fact, because I says so".

It's not because I say so; it's because the Bible says so.

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That doesn't make it "fact", by a long shot. It's still only an opinion or belief. There is inherently no more weight to the Christian God than there is to Gaia or Odin or Bast.