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All homeschooled kids aren't smart - half of them aren't because of lazsy parents. Making assumptions like that doesn't get you anywhere, especially if you want to have a "job" like the ones you've written about.

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This is true in a sense. Homeschooled kids generally test better, but only a little better. But once again, you have to have the right personality for it and parents with the ability (smarts and/or enough free time) to watch over you. Home/unschooled kids are usually that way precisely because they meet those requirements, so of course they're gonna do a little better.

That's the thing I don't understand about your argument: the system already IS free. Education is compulsory only in the sense that everyone's supposed to have an education of a certain standard. You can already be homeschooled or unschooled if your parents choose, so long as you can prove to the government that you're learning things, which you claim will happen better anyway. What exactly is the problem here?

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The fact that they make you go to school. It's like making people vote. I don't get why they make you do it. It's about liberty that is taken away. You see my point?

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Not really.

Are you going to be talking about how your liberty is taken away when you're 25, un-educated, and trying to find a job?

My liberal side says we have the responsibility to give everyone a chance in the world. Education gives them that chance.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

With liberty comes responsibility. Read Franklin and Jefferson sometime.

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You're telling him to read? You're going to take away his freedom!

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Uhh... I'm not say that we should abolish education. I'm saying we should give people a choice between education and going out and getting a job when they can comprehend how to do one.

Of course my conservative side tells me to make everyone at least get an 8th grade education, and I do not see how that's a bad idea.

Truly, you don't have to get an education through school too. Look at how many great people taught themselves in their spare time. Education doesn't have to happen in school, Ramrod. Yes education is good, school in it's current form, is not.

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"They" don't. "They" just require you to keep up with standardized tests. Your PARENTS make you go to school. Your parents could choose, at any time, to take you out of school. They don't have to homeschool you even, as long as you keep up with what you're supposed to know. I think they might have to have a curriculum for you, but as long as you keep passing the standardized tests, they don't even have to use that because there's no way for the school district to look and see that the curriculum is actually being used.

The way you want things could happen RIGHT NOW if your PARENTS went along with it. This isn't about the government.

Ask your parents right now to go through the process to switch you with the school district to homeschooling and then trust you to learn on your own and keep up with the tests. They have the power to make that happen. If they say no, it's them, not the government.

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That's a good idea. I might try to do that someday. I know that's what I'll do with my kids.

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And remember, parents are absolute dictators.

- Kef

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That's about the truth. Usually, though not always, they do know best.

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Simply just pray for usable parents, then?
I knew first hand the dictator of the house, and I'm sure I'll never be able to change her mind about school.

*reluctantly goes to college 2 years later*

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They can't make you go to college you know.
Lolz. It will take a while for parents to realize that after you turn 18 you are not controlled by them. I know it will mine.

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Too bad my mom paints a grim picture of my future if I don't go to college so it feels like I'm going on my own free will.

In short, I can feel my blood pressure for Wednesday (my first day) already rising to unhealthy proportions.

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LOL Not going to college?
I'll take fries with that.


Seriously, though, don't let high school taint your opinion of college.

Imagine High School is like getting shot in the kneecaps.
College would be like sleeping in a bed full of fluffy pillows... while taking a bath in money...

Ok, so that's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, once you don't HAVE to go anymore, it's pretty sweet. That, and you'll make tons of incredible friends that you'll never forget.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Like that.

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College can be good. It can help you sort through what's really important to you in life. It can also be a waste of time, energy, and money if you're not committed to the learning process.

After I graduated high school, I wasn't committed to the learning process. Instead, I joined the military, went overseas, traveled a lot, THEN went to college. By that time, I had some new energy for learning and some idea of the direction I wanted my life to take.

Chicken Leg, if you're not committed to the learning process, college is probably not going to benefit you much. That's not to say it won't at all; you might just find a school with a program that captures your interest and gives you some sense of direction for your future career. But there are other things you could consider besides college.

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I was thinking of taking some art classes, as I am committed to that learning process. Seems like everything else is a "waste of time" now. To be honest, I just don't feel like it'll make any sort of impact over me. I could be spending my time learning what I want to that had to be planned for after high school.

But, in the acute school turmoil I've had in the past few hours has been making me pretty disorganized and ruffled in the feathers.

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NECROPHILIA!

To be honest, I'm getting real cheesed off at school. Basically, I have to devote 5 whole days around it a week, where the teachers are too hard-working, indifferent, or changeophobic to care that teenagers are miserable.

As I said before, compulsory education should still be up, but instead--from 9th grade on-- we should have the freedom to learn what we want, and the freedom to have more course diversity (I understand there aren't really that many teacher, but why can't schools just learn to copy what MIT recently did?). I can care less about math, science, English, and P.E., but those courses make up 20 of the 32 classes I have to take. With each class 80 minutes long for 90 days, I waste 144,000 minutes
(27% of a year)(Totally ran the numbers both on paper and on the computer. But it's only to show that the education from K-8 now is nessessary) of my life (not including homework) that I could be doing something more personally fulfilling with, but can't because the Government infantilizes me to where even prisoners have less restrictions (other than the obvious).



If there was a cartoon drawing class, I would've signed up faster that one flap of a hummingbird's wings, but due to that class not existing here, I had to take Art 1, which is zero amounts of fun and focuses on drawing the most mundane things to exact specifications. I just wanted to learn how to draw my cartoons better, not how to draw my own hand accurately or learn the title of some painting I'll never remember ever again.

I'm thinking about showing my complaints to a local Congress[s]Homestar[/s]man, but I'm pretty sure I won't be taken seriously. But it's worth a shot.

Oh, and this is to the people who think I just made up that quote. Also shows some other good information.

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Dangit, I was going to post that link!

Whatever, it's still good reading.

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Ah, but there's your mistake: you want to learn to draw better, but you're not willing to allow a class that can actually help you learn to draw better? You see, you may not be able to appreciate the more realistic approach that this class focuses on, but if you are willing to do the required work and learn from it, it WILL help you be a better cartoonist. You can't learn the intricacies of any art unless you're willing to get the foundations first. Even if it's not the fun stuff you're wanting to do, it will help you.

It's like this: I took piano in order to help my music production skills. At first, I didn't really like having to learn the scales and arpeggios and finger exercises, but as time went by, I could see that such work DID in fact improve my playing skills.

Also, about the article: one thing that jumps out at me clear as day is that, in the 1800's and 1900's, teens were not just expected to get an education, but they were also expected to work, either on the family farm, or in the family business, or at a job on a friend's farm or business. In other words, the teens weren't just given privileges: they were also given responsibilities. Real life responsibilities.

My thought: if a teen shows interest in working, in learning a trade, or even just being responsible for their own finances and wellbeing, then more power to them. Let them work at jobs, make money, and contribute to the family. But if not, then at least school might still have a chance of getting some sense into them.

Also, I note that there was the comparison between schools and the military. I do not believe that the article takes into account basic training, which is a very intense program used to instill discipline, loyalty, and responsibility. But once Basic is over, military members are pretty much allowed to live like ordinary citizens, so long as they follow orders and fulfill their responsibilities to their assigned posts. Basic training does an excellent job, I think, if giving the recruit the values necessary to carry out a responsible life. Military regulation does help keep them in line afterwards.

So my thought is this: seeing what Basic Training does for the recruit, why not have it be a part of our educational system? Send kids to boot camp for the first three weeks of the school year? It might just put them in the right frame of mind to appreciate the opportunity for a good education.

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I'll kill before I go to a military type boot camp.
Those things break you down to a point of extreme low, then build you back up to be exactly like they want you to be: A mindless drone that will follow orders.
Or so that's what I think they are meant to do. At least I've heard they do break you down and then build you back up. I could ramble on about how I think the entire world is too nationalistic and patriotic, but this isn't the thread for it.

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You are speaking out of ignorance instead of experience. You always sound like a fool when you feign experience. Let someone who has been through that situation, i.e. Didymus, tell you what it is really like.

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To the contrary, they teach you to think on your toes, under pressure, when the whatsit hits the fan, etc.

A mindless drone is not good for anything, especially in combat. Oh, sure if things go exactly to plan, and the "order giver" stays OK, then a drone is pretty useful. However, combat doesn't ever go exactly to plan, and the sergeant sometimes becomes unable to give orders.
Then what?
You have cannon fodder. Nothing more, nothing less.

The military has revised basic training to reflect this.

Of course, I'm not in the military, so I can't say for sure, but from talking to people involved (I've researched the military extensively and haven't totally written it off as a career).

Like BTG said, though, we'd be better off leaving this to someone who actually knows.

Didymus was in the Air Force, and DanBo is off playing Popeye the Sailor as we speak.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

I heard it from a guy who is a KY State Trooper (State Policeman basically) that went to a boot camp typed place.
They break you down and build you back up is basically what he said, correct me if I'm wrong.
All I'm saying is that at the time you are broken down they could build you back up to be a little bit of a different person if you know what I mean.

The first part of this post is all well and good, but it worries me about "getting some sense into them". I don't think the government has any right to force kids to get some "sense". What's the definition of sense anyway? The way you believe and not the way others do?

As long as the military is voluntary I see no problem with that.

Or it might just b there to brainwash them into accepting that they are being coerced into a system that is outdated, underfunded, and worst of all:
Compulsory.

I'll never appreciate being forced to do anything, if someone wants to ask me nicely that's all fine and dandy. But I don't take kindly to people forcing me into a system which I just don't like, and doesn't teach me as well as it could.
EDIT: Missed StrongRad's post:

But civilians don't need to be like that, so who's to say it wouldn't be easy to use this method in our compulsory public schools, the schools nearly everybody is coerced into at one time or another, to make an easily manageable populace.
It's been done in the past and I'm always getting mad whenever I hear someone say "Don't use drugs!(because we say so)" or "Listen to your teacher! (because someday you'll have to listen to the almighty dictator)".
What's bad is compulsory schooling, what's worse is public schooling. It's open for use as a brainwashing tool. I'd like government vouchers to pay for private schools myself. Keep the government out of the schooling process without actually keeping the poor from an education.

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ChickenLeg: I think you're right about the infantilizing that happens to youths these days, and that it needs to stop. But what would you replace school with? Free time? That's even more infantilizing. This here's the truth:


Real life responsibilities are the key to not being infantilized. Having to deal with real problems and fend for yourself. Anything less than that leaves you immature and less than prepared.

IMO, if teens would rather work than go to school, they should be allowed to. They should also be allowed to return to school when they finally realize why the stuff in there is necessary. I can completely understand how you can't see how the stuff you're learning leads to anything useful, because you haven't gotten out there and really experienced for yourself WHY it's useful. School would be a much better place if the students, through real-world experiences, realized why it was necessary and actually wanted to be there.

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I really think a hybrid idea, taking the benefits of your idea of work with the benefits of school, would be a good approach.
Work study/internships would be a REALLY good component of high school curriculum. Allow the students to work alongside someone in their preferred field. If you do that, it'll do 2 things. One, it'll give the students (especially those that'll need to go onto college for their career) an idea of the things that really matter for the job. Two, it'll allow students that decide that their dream job really isn't more time to change. I went to college with a guy that "knew" he wanted to be an engineer from the time he was 8 or 9. This want lasted all the way through high school, then through college (bachelor's + master's degrees), and lasted for about 6 months on his job.
He was going through school for his second time when I met him, lamenting wasting 6 years of his life studying engineering when he really wanted something else (but didn't know it until he got into the industry).*

As for the "dictator" thing, Wes, it seems like you're just in a rebellious, "non-conformist" stage. I don't disagree with the basic idea of "live your life however you want, so long as you don't hurt anyone else", but the problem is some people don't realize that seemingly innocuous things can and DO impact the lives of others. Sometimes rather seriously.

You don't listen to your teacher to learn how to listen to a dictator. You listen to a teacher so you will have the skills you'll need to get a job and not rely on taxpayers such as myself for income, food, etc.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Psh, Wes.
I attend one of the worst schools in the state. It's not that bad. Suck it up, man.

Though public schools have some serious problems that really do need to be addressed.

Exactly, Wes. I've been there and done that. And I double-dog DARE you to call me a mindless drone.

I'm talking about a sense of responsibility, as well as some basic facts about the world we live in. I see absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting kids to learn.


1. Outdated. Perhaps you've heard the term "chronological snobbery". C. S. Lewis used it numerous times to point out the fallacy of thinking that, just because an idea or system is new that it is automatically better.

2. You say the word "Compulsory" as if it were bad. I do not concede that it is. If anything, I would expect a government to force kids who would prefer to be uneducated and a drain on national resources to get an education.

Oh, and just a hint, Wes. Resorting to using terms like "brainwashing" is a mere rhetorical trick on your part. Education is not "brainwashing". When the student is open to learning, it is a system for imparting information. Using a term like "brainwashing" to describe public education is what we like to call "a Rosalie."

Likewise, Basic Training wasn't anywhere near "brainwashing". In a nutshell, it is a very intense program for learning to work as part of a team. It does not "brainwash," but actually teaches you how to think, even in high stress situations. It focuses on instilling self-discipline, individual responsibility, and team cooperation. These seem to be concepts that you more and more reject as you discuss these issues, so I can see why you would be opposed to them. But seriously, if you've never been to something like Basic Training, then you are in no position to offer any kind of critique what it's like.

What I don't like about your mode of conversation, Wes, is that you completely discount wisdom being offered to you by people who have actual life experience to back up what they're talking about.

Like I said before, the very concepts of self-discipline, individual responsibility, and cooperation with others are extremely important if you expect to survive in life. And yet these seem to be the very concepts that you constantly want to reject. It is for that very reason why I for one am glad that our nation does have compulsory education laws, and that you are subject to them, like it or not.

NINTI:

AGREE'D!! Wes, your time would be much better spent trying to address specific wrongs of our current education system rather than trying to completely overthrow it. In fact, if you were doing that, it might just convince me that you are a responsible person.

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I understand that, but I think it bes, at least for me, to learn it myself out of a book or work with somebody who treats me like I'm an equal to them to learn.

I just don't like the fact that teachers stand in the front of a room looming over you and lecturing you while you are expected to somehow learn. They treat you like you are inferior, which is directly apposed to some of the principles the US of A was founded on.

Besides, I'm going to quote a famous person:
"Knowledge which is acquired under compulsion has no hold on the mind."-Plato

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