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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:01 am 
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Actually, I think I just made some pretty solid points there, Ramrod. Can you actually refute them?

Oh, just in case you missed them:
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Incidentally, considering that actual physical manuscripts of biblical documents can be dated as early as within 50 years after the last apostle died, I fail to see how this would allow for "hundreds of years" of compilation. Furthermore, since those same biblical documents were quoted by early Christian writers like Irenaeus DURING THE FIRST CENTURY, I fail to see how that would allow for "hundreds of years" of compilation as well.

FACT: current text critical evidence supports early dates for the writings of the Gospels and other New Testament writings.

FACT: current textual evidence supports the ACCURACY of these manuscripts.

FACT: the writers of the Gospels were EYEWITNESSES of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (with the exception of St. Luke, who seems to have written his Gospel after doing extensive historical research, presumably by interviewing other eyewitnesses).

FACT: these writers, with the exception of St. John, all suffered horrific deaths on account of their refusal to renounce what they had written. It is inconceivable that such men who placed such high value on truth would be willing to die for something unless they were thoroughly convinced it were true.

FACT: there is no genuine historical evidence to contradict the biblical accounts of the Gospels. Considering the importance of a man like Jesus to the history of that era, if any such evidence existed, it must have been presented somewhere.


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eh, no thanks. i'll just call 'em liars.

Which then means you have absolutely no grounds on which to stand.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:02 am 
Rammy, you fraking rule!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:08 am 
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except the cool tiles beneath my feet, Didymus. everyone on this planet has to find somewhere to stick. and while i'm stickin down wherever gravity keeps me, i just may happen to say some annoying things.

and yeah. even if they meant well, they are liars. because they were imperfect little sinners that wrote the bible. and they excluded certain texts, which deprives followers of information about THE SON OF GOD (supposedly) so why on earth would they wanna leave something out? who knows. maybe they didn't wanna mention that jesus pooped like everryone else. or that he had a boring life for twenty or so years. i sure don't know. so whatever, i'm still standing somewhere.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:13 am 
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Didymus wrote:
ncidentally, considering that actual physical manuscripts of biblical documents can be dated as early as within 50 years after the last apostle died, I fail to see how this would allow for "hundreds of years" of compilation. Furthermore, since those same biblical documents were quoted by early Christian writers like Irenaeus DURING THE FIRST CENTURY, I fail to see how that would allow for "hundreds of years" of compilation as well.
50 years is still a long time. Besides, What you are saying that the earliet gospel might have been written within 50 years of the last Apostle's death, that doesn't mean that they all were. Maybe one was written earlier, and the others much later.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:14 am 
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Didymus wrote:
FACT: there is no genuine historical evidence to contradict the biblical accounts of the Gospels. Considering the importance of a man like Jesus to the history of that era, if any such evidence existed, it must have been presented somewhere.
You know why? Because the Romans were in charge, and to them Jesus was just an insignificant man. He wasn't worth 2 Denari in their eyes. The only reason they did anything to him was to prevent a Jewish revolt led by the Sanhedrin.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:14 am 
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You can sit there and claim they're liars all day if you want, Putin. You STILL haven't presented any evidence on the subject. Or any sound reason why I should reject the texts as accurate. And what's this about "leaving certain texts out"? I am familiar with the apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings, and there are reasons they are considered unreliable: because their authenticity cannot be established. So what you claim got "left out" never should have been in in the first place because it is unreliable. So, until you can present reasons why I should trust one of these apocryphal writings more than the canonical texts themselves, I still say you're blowing smoke with your charges of lying.

http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp? ... as-nt.html

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:17 am 
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This being a thread about atheists on the forum, I'd like to make a motion to TOAST PAINT.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:18 am 
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ramrod wrote:
50 years is still a long time. Besides, What you are saying that the earliet gospel might have been written within 50 years of the last Apostle's death, that doesn't mean that they all were. Maybe one was written earlier, and the others much later.

No, only that that's the earliest REMAINING copy of that manuscript. I didn't claim that it was the original. But keep this in mind: the sheer proliferation of the copies dictates that the original must have been available much earlier (and this is even considering that papyrus isn't exactly acid-free archives quality paper - it degenerates very easily; that, and the Romans were constantly trying to destroy available manuscripts when they could get their hands on them). However, you might want to note, as I said earlier, that early non-biblical Christian writers were quoting the Gospels and Epistles during the First Century (i.e., while St. John was still alive), further evidence of an early date for those books.

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You know why? Because the Romans were in charge, and to them Jesus was just an insignificant man. He wasn't worth 2 Denari in their eyes. The only reason they did anything to him was to prevent a Jewish revolt led by the Sanhedrin.

Maybe, but the Jews still hated him with a passion. You'd think the Sanhedrin would have some documents to support their case against such a "blasphemer" and his followers.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:23 am 
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Enough!

Didy, Putin is entitled to believe what he wants to believe. If he believes the writers of the Gospels to be liars, then so be it. You don't have to and he doesn't have to produce evidence to make you believe otherwise.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:24 am 
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As I just said, toastpaint.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:25 am 
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i think you're partially correct, Ian, but then again we're venting some interesting stuff here. and it is about atheism. and we are on the forum. certainly not MY call though...

anyway, Didy: i'm not trying to convince you of a single thing. I don't expect you to ever see a speck of truth in what I say, which is fine. I'm not trying to convince you, and it would be pretty rude if i were, especially since you've made religion your life's work. so chill out with that. and as far as my charges of them being liars goes, i said it to provoke you, because you made it sound like those words could escape noone's mouth. so yeah. liars. and i don't expect or want you (or anyone else) to believe me.

and didy, and educated man such as yourself knows that "the bible", as we know it now, was complied WAY after jesus was gone. and sure some of it was written shortly after his death and whatnot, but humans cannot possibly be perfect according to your own treatment of people like our friend ramrod (who you never allow, or anyone else for that matter, to forget that we are sniveling inherently flawed subordinates to some invisible father figure) and myself. so yeah. people wrote it. it must be flawed. and i don't expect you to ever believe me.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:26 am 
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Ok, you know what? I'm Temp locking this, just so we all have a change to cool down, alright? When I unlock this, let's talk about Atheism, alright? No more debates on whether Christianity is true or not. If you want to talk about that, make a topic about it, ok?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:29 am 
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OK, I've unlocked this, OK? Can we now not have and holy wars now?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:32 pm 
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y'see, this is why I don't go to R&P...


toastpaint..

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:38 pm 
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Moving on...
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i said it to provoke you

Not a good reason to say anything, my friend, unless you want the discussion to degenerate into a fight. Please refrain from saying things merely for the sake of provocation in the future. In this, I am speaking not merely as an opponent in the discussion, but as a moderator of this forum.

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and didy, and educated man such as yourself knows that "the bible", as we know it now, was complied WAY after jesus was gone. and sure some of it was written shortly after his death and whatnot, but humans cannot possibly be perfect according to your own treatment of people like our friend ramrod (who you never allow, or anyone else for that matter, to forget that we are sniveling inherently flawed subordinates to some invisible father figure) and myself. so yeah. people wrote it. it must be flawed. and i don't expect you to ever believe me.

I already cited one article on why I believe a much earlier date for the writing of the manuscripts, as well as a much earlier date for listings of the canon. While the books themselves may not have been bound together in codices until much later, at least part of that is because codices weren't in regular use at the time. Most of these manuscripts existed as papyrus scrolls, as parchment was very expensive. But the writings of the New Testament were quoted by early Christian writers as early as the first century, meaning that there was at least some established recognition of them as authoritative at that time.

Furthermore, as I stated before, papyrus was very fragile. For us to still have papyrus manuscripts dating to the second century is in itself pretty remarkable, and would seem to indicate that copies of these manuscripts were being made and distributed pretty widely.

Furthermore, if there were elaborations made to the manuscripts, it would stand to reason that they would have ultimately caused the available texts to become so widely divergent, that none of them would be reliable. A copy of John's Gospel in Egypt would have looked radically different than a copy in Syria, or Armenia, or Rome. It is true that minute variances did appear in some later manuscript families, but far too late to effect a change of all available copies. Furthermore, these minute variations rarely present the reader with adequate reason to doubt the text, for the following reasons:
1. Such variances account for less than 1% of the entire biblical texts.
2. The vast majority of these variations can be attributed to slight copyist errors, for example, when a copyist might accidentally say "Jesus Christ" instead of "Christ Jesus".
3. There are at least two instances where long passages seem to have been added later. One is the ending of Mark 16. The other is from John 8, the story of the woman caught in adultery (where the famous "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" passage comes from). So yes, certainly one ought to at least question such passages, but they still account for such a drastically minute portion of the whole, that they don't really diminish the overall message of Scripture, anyway.

More on this later.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:40 pm 
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Alright, enough. We're here to talk about Atheism, not Christianity. I will perma lock this thread if I see any more spam, flames, or Christian rants, ok?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:50 pm 
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Hey, all I did was answer Putin's last objection. That was information, not rant. No need to get angry, Ramrod.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:23 am 
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Does this thread even need to exist? Is there anything to discuss about atheism? They don't believe in any god(s)... that's about the extent of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:11 am 
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Didymus wrote:
Hey, all I did was answer Putin's last objection. That was information, not rant. No need to get angry, Ramrod.
Sorry, it's just with this happening, along with everything else on this forum, the other forum, and my real life, it's all one big crappy week.

As for you Simon, this thread was made to see if there were any more Athiest on this forum. I guess we have out answer.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:35 am 
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I used to be Atheist for a short time...it was when I was in college--an environment in which I was able to step outside of where I was before and reflect on how I was being pressured by family and society in general around me to think, do, and believe things that are contrary to my nature. So, since I had been raised Christian, I pulled away by first going to the other extreme and calling myself Atheist.

I eventually did even more soul-searching, though, and am now at peace with my spirituality, which follows no specific religion but draws influences from a variety of them (cheifly Buddhism and various Pagan beliefs).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:51 am 
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I'm an atheist.


Yep.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:20 am 
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Yeah...Didy, I have to admit, the fact that you rely solely on the Bible for your evidence is starting to get on my nerves a little bit. And your interpretation of it is just so strict, and pretty hellfire-and-brimstone-sounding.

I actually really agree with Ramrod's thoughts on the matter.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:23 am 
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But Mandy, can you offer me any reason why I shouldn't rely on the Scriptures? I'm an intelligent, well-read man who is able to examine evidence and think for myself; it just so happens I conclude that the Scriptures are reliable, that is until someone can give me adequate reason why I shouldn't.

As far as interpretation goes, I don't recall anyone else "interpreting" anything from the Scriptures. Interpreting would mean actually citing some passages, examining their syntax and grammar, exploring the context and other related passages, expounding their meaning, describing some sort of application, and perhaps formulating some conclusion based on them. No, what I have observed is not interpretation, but outright rejection.

But here's part of the problem (at least as I see it): there are some things which are stated pretty strictly in Scripture and aren't really open for interpretation. Unless you are proposing, as Luther accused Erasmus of doing in "The Bondage Of The Will," that the Scriptures are so obscure as to escape any understanding. But if that's the case, then why bother calling ourselves Christians, since we can know nothing of this man Jesus, much less follow him or any of his teachings?

I really don't want to drag up the other day's battle again; Ramrod and I were both highly emotional in our discussion. I will just simply say this one last time and leave it at that: I feel I have more than adequate reasons for believing as I do. I've been on this pilgrimage for more than 15 years, and throughout that time, I have sought God through study and prayer, and, as I have shared with a small handful of people here, I have even fought with God. I've seen too much and been through too much over the past few years in particular to simply concede to an opinion just because it happens to be popular, or to renounce any of my own just because they are unpopular or even uncomfortable to others. No, I am at a place in my life and faith where, pretty much, unless someone can show me where I'm wrong, I neither can nor will recant (funny, I sound like Luther for some reason).

Now I'm not saying this means my faith is proved beyond all doubt, or that it means people are stupid if they don't believe as I do, or are bad people. But can you reasonably expect a follower of Christ to simply start contradicting what Jesus says because such things are unpopular or inconvenient?

In John 6, Jesus addresses a crowd of over 5000 people with a very difficult truth: "If you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life." Confronted with this hard saying, this crowd argued with Jesus, and finally, when he didn't simply change his message to suit their tastes, they all left, and only 12 remained. Those 12, I have no doubt, were probably just as confused as the rest, and yet they remained. Why? Because in some deep part of themselves, they knew where they needed to be. They had seen this man do things they could only imagine, and even if what he was telling that crowd was very challenging, yet they were committed to trusting him. And even Jesus himself said, "Narrow is the way to eternal life, and few find it, but wide is the path to destruction," and, "Many are called, but few are chosen." What does this mean? That I shouldn't really care whether what I say is popular or not; only that it should be honest and truthful.

To summarize:

1. Actually believing in the authority of Scripture does not make one stupid.

2. Sometimes truth isn't popular (in fact, most often it isn't).

Oh, and one more thing: I do feel that my training and my vocation do give me a bit of expertise in this, at least as far as what Christians do teach, believe, and confess, in much the same way that a doctor's profession and training gives him expertise to discuss medical subjects. I am not demanding that you bow to me, but I do want you to realize you have one among you who has thoroughly studied these subjects and is qualified to teach others. I wouldn't mind having this discussion with a decently read amateur theologian, say, if Ramrod wanted to compare and contrast the interpretations of charitas in Aquinas and Luther with me.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:52 am 
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I'm what Kef calls a weak atheist, but I'm probably the least spiritual person you could ever meet. And..... um..... looking at the rest of this thread, I'm glad of it really.

Religion = hideously grossly convoluted. To be avoided. Uhh...... you'll find me on the Politics side of this forum most of the time.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Am I an atheist?

Maybe.

I've given up trying to figure out what I believe. I suppose it doesn't really matter to me anymore. I'm more focused on the life I plan to live as opposed to the afterlife.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:56 pm 
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is it an atheist to not be religious, or to think that religion is wrong?

in either case, i'll just label myself as non-religious.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Question: forget about any religion. do you believe in any kind of supernatural force or personage that created and/or guides reality? Yes/Absolutely Not/"I Don't know"

If you answered "absolutely not", you are an atheist. Also, by Kef's definition you could answer "I don't know but probably not" and be a "weak atheist".

Religion refers to a set of beliefs and practices used in common by a group of people in relation to the supernatural. Being non-religious only means you go your own way spiritually, which could include atheism but doesn't have to.

(not an atheist, but a sometimes-Christian having extreme trouble staying convinced)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:07 pm 
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I feel I must apologize for my behavior the other day. It was not my intention to rain down fire and brimstone (I typically deplore that approach), but it has become clear that that is how I came across.

This morning, I had a good heart-to-heart talk with my former bishop, Weldon. In discussing some of the congregational problems I had experienced in Greenville (and in the context of confessing my own sins, I might add), he reminded me of a passage in which Jesus and his disciples were expelled from a village. James and John (being the Sons of Thunder that they were) said to him, "Should we bring down fire from heaven to destroy them?" (as if that were within their power and their right to do so), and Jesus' response was, "No. The Son of Man came not to destroy, but to seek and to save that which was lost."

I disagree with Ramrod's basic premise - that we can actually earn eternal life by doing good deeds. My logic here is simple: how long would you have to work at a job to earn an infinite amount of money? That being the case, then how long do you think you'd have to work to earn an eternity of bliss and joy? (I don't know about you, but my paychecks rarely afford me more than a few minutes of such bliss). One would have to perform an eternity of good deeds. And that's assuming that such a person doesn't do anything wrong - that would only extend the amount of work that would need to be done. Therefore, I cannot help but conclude that eternal life, if it is to be gained at all, must be granted to us as a gift, and that a gift that can only be bought for us at a very high price - none other than God's own son.

But the problem is we are all caught in an endless cycle of sin. Yes, even I am caught in it, as my actions the other day demonstrate.

Yes, I disagree with Ramrod, but I do not condemn him. He is a baptized child of God, even if he sometimes forgets (as we all do) what that means. Heck, I baptize babies, knowing full well that they are completely incapable of intellectually formulating any aspect of the Christian teaching. Why? Because I trust in that means of grace (Acts 2:38-39), that God will help them even when they are entirely unable to help themselves. Because, when you get right down to it, at least in this life, we all appear entirely unable to help ourselves.

As I stated to Mandy in that last post, I do not wish to drag out a fight again. I am only saying this in hopes that it will help any ill feelings that have resulted from my behavior.

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By the way, I just realized I haven't said my full stance on the issue of the existence of a Creator. Here's what I believe (in a sense):

I believe it is impossible for a Creator to create the universe, and I believe it is impossible for the universe to magically create itself.

This is, of course, a contradiction, so there would be no universe -- and yet, there is one. So this argument doesn't really make sense. But then, the universe doesn't really make sense either, does it? ;)

The one thing in particular that swings me toward atheism is that if God didn't have to come from anywhere -- he "just exists" -- then the same thing could apply to the universe: it didn't "come from" anywhere, it "just exists". That argument removes a variable, making it simpler, and therefore, all else being equal, more plausible.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:49 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
I feel I must apologize for my behavior the other day. It was not my intention to rain down fire and brimstone (I typically deplore that approach), but it has become clear that that is how I came across.

(stuff)


'Salright, Dids. We all have our moments like that, though not always in regards to religion. (God knows I do...:P) Thank you for apologizing, though. *hug*

furrykef wrote:
(stuff)


And that, my friend, is why I avoid thinking about that sorta thing. :P The entire concept of eternity (and infinity, for that matter) gives me a headache, but so would the concept of time and the universe being finite...it's a good thing I'm not a theologian or a scientist or anyone else who'd have to think about that kinda stuff!

Really, though, I have even MORE trouble with the concept of an infinite universe. My dad asked some really good questions about it to his mom when he was, like, 4, though. Like, if there's a box, there is always something OUTSIDE the box. Just like how if the universe is finite, there would have to be SOMETHING outside of it.

Toastpaint.

Also, TOTPD! :eekdance:

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