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Actually, it's called a belief. I don't need scientific crap to justify anything.

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Uh.... No.

uhm, sorry if that came off wrong, i wan't trying to be hostile.

all i mentioned was that your comment about religion not supporting evolution was just flawed technially since evolution didn't exist at the time those religions were created. i wasn't trying to discredit religion or your ideas. my implied point actually was that perhaps if the ideas about evolution had existed at the time (hypothetical only here), some religions may have supported it or incorporated it into their belief systems/stories/history/etc.

i didn't mean those darwin comments to be directed at you, Tian, just to clarify. those were general comments about Darwin's life that i figured some people might'nt know. like i said, i'm not trying to step on anything you have to say.

That's why they're all called the Abrahamic Religions--they ultimately are derived from the same source. Moreover, pretty much every major organized religion has some message of peace, love, and tolerance of others at its core.

As far as evolution and religion, they aren't necessarily incompatible, unless you take certain segments of a highly-metaphorical set of texts literally. It's why some people still today believe in a flat earth, instead of a spherical one. Moreover, even though I'm no longer Christian, I still don't think that an Abrahamic God would really care how we today believed the earth and everything got started--I mean, it's already done, isn't it? It's not like anything we say to the contrary is going to change how it really was done, and I somehow don't feel that an omnibenevolent God would want us to be squabbling over something so petty anyway. I mean really--what is gained from arguing over what different people believe, as long as science still is science and can still derive what it needs to derive for us to improve our quality of life through technology and medicine and the like?

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

To the best of my knowledge, Christianity has never taught or believed in a flat earth. That's a myth concocted to glorify the importance of Christopher Columbus. In fact, there are passages in Medieval Christian writings (most notably Boetheus, Aquinas, and Dante) that state the earth is round.

I do not believe that the process of creation is of primary concern. The ancient Creeds (Nicene, Athanasian, and Apostolic) are concerned not with how God created, but rather the fact that he is the Creator. All three Creeds place as centrally important the Holy Trinity and the nature and work of Christ. This is why I rarely comment on discussions about origins - I'm more concerned with christology and soterology than with cosmology (that's not to say that I don't have my own views that I believe are correct).

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I'm in the "agnostic athiest" boat with Kef. I don't know with absolute certainty that there is no higher being, but I think it's pretty unlikely and that the universe makes a bit more sense without one.

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Once, again, I'm not sure how you're coming to these conclusions. There are other theories than a higher being. Just because some people don't believe in a higher being doesn't mean they don't believe in something else. Apathy is not what atheism is about.

Okey Dokey Shoe.

And Ju Ju, i used the word "think". I THINK That they don't care. I'm probably wrong anyways.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe in one God and all believe in Abraham and and all believe in Jerusalem as a very holy city. They have a lot of differences though.

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Uh.... No.

...

There are so many things wrong with that sentence...

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Definitely an urban legend. The Greeks were theorizing a spherical Earth as early as the 6th century B.C. The mathematician Eratosthenes closely estimated the circumference of the Earth in the 3rd century B.C. By the time of Jesus's birth it was well accepted, at least among the educated, that the Earth was round.

Gidley is right, though; there are a few marginal sects that believe the Earth is flat, and they use Bible verses for justification. Revelation 7:1 is a big one:

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree."

Severe literalists take that as meaning the Earth is actually a big, flat, square sort of deal. My understanding is that then, as now, "four corners of the Earth" was used as a metaphor meaning that all parts of the planet were affected. You'll never convince the Flat Earthers of that, though...they're determined that the world is flat and they'll bend all the evidence to support their claims. It's not an uncommon malady...

Mike

I'm not any sort of religious. I don't believe in God because I figure the universe doesn't need a creator, otherwise you get a "turtles all the way down" thing going on. If the existence of a deity was proven, I'd be surprised but open to the idea.

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"They've taken Mr Rimmer! Sir, they've taken Mr Rimmer!"
"Quick, let's get outta here before they bring him back!"

The Book of Revelation by its very nature demands an allegorical interpretation, the key to which is the first three chapters: exhortations to the Seven Churches of Asia to remain faithful to Christ despite the overwhelming temptations, pressures, and even persecutions of the world.


I do not believe that the current city called Jerusalem in the modern nation-state of Israel is the holy city. But I do believe there is a New Jerusalem which God has prepared for his people so that he can dwell among them for eternity, but we won't see it until the Last Day. Rather, I take Augustin's approach, that the City of God today is the Holy Christian Church (1 Peter 2:9).

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Well... I guess I'm not an atheist anymore... I actually found a religion that like... doesn't make me change what I believe or already do.

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Wii code: 6799 3601 8977 1520

What are you talking about?

Seems like, if you're an athiest, then finding a religion would make you change what you believe, I mean, you have no religion, then you have one..

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

well, not really. It's pretty much atheistic for the most part. Mostly just rules and stuff. And things about life and stuff.

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Wii code: 6799 3601 8977 1520

What is it?

Thats called a Philosophy/belief, not a religion. Although, what is it that you found?

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as for what it is, I'm not so sure about revealing it.

It's a touchy subject.

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Wii code: 6799 3601 8977 1520

Bah, we're not so easily shocked around here. I doubt you'll get much grief for it, whatever it is. Um, though that's not a guarantee.

I've got 50 Euros that says it's Scientology. Any takers?

Lol, not scientology, that would be a cult my friend

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Wii code: 6799 3601 8977 1520

Though people in cults don't tend to think they're in cults. Toastpaint.

lol, rest assured, I am not giving up my life savings for this thing. Haha

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Wii code: 6799 3601 8977 1520

Like Magna Carta, I am an atheist Jew. I celebrate Hanukkah, and some other things, but I don't do much more than that, and I don't believe in the existence of any deity.

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I refuse to change my signature until sloganizer becomes a fad again.

I AM!

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So...up until a few years ago I was...I guess a believer in the Christian form of God, but (along with other things) what more or less converted me to atheism was Carl Sagan's little speech on the "Pale Blue Dot" photo

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I read the speech on the wikipedia page, but I don't really see how that influences religion one way or the other. Could you shed a little light on the subject?

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

My guess -- only a guess! -- is that what Dewy has in mind is that our world is too insignificant in the grand scheme of things for a deity to be concerned with it. I suppose that says nothing about whether a god exists, but it says something about whether or not a deity would be interested in our affairs.

And speaking of the Earth's relative insignificance, let's not forget that 4 billion miles away from the Earth is pretty much nothing in cosmic terms. The nearest galaxy (Andromeda) is still so far away (2.5 million light-years) that we'll never be able to go there, even if somehow we get faster-than-light travel... and yet there are an estimated hundred billion galaxies out there. We're not a pale blue dot. We're a pale blue atom -- if even that.

- Kef

I know there will be flames for this, but it's not like I've not taken heat for my beliefs before, so, whatever, but I see that "pale blue dot" argument as something that makes God's love for our planet even more amazing. Out of all of the pale (and bright) blue (and other colors), he decided Earth would be the one where he put us.

This isn't to say that I think we're alone in the universe. To be honest, I haven't given that much thought. It doesn't really matter to me much either way, but yeah. This thread's about Atheists, so I'm gonna hand it back to ya.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Eh, I guess thats a pretty good argument, but it still seems to me that if there is a deity of some sort, why us instead of the other 1238903593284u59234^342 planets that possibly have intelligent life? What makes us so special? And! How can you even be sure that God (if he exists) made only us? Maybe there's other planets that have life similar, if not the same, as ours?

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That is because God is not to be found in the vastness of empty space (present, yes, but not found). The stars pointed the way to God only once that I remember in history, and that was to a stable in Bethlehem. In other words, if Sagan seeks to find God in the vasty nothingness of the black, he's looking in the wrong place.


So far. Of the billions upon billions upon billions of other planets, how many of them can we really confirm have no life?


That's actually a very silly question if you think about it. It's like asking, "How come whenever I'm looking for something, it's always in the very last place I look?" If we did exist on one of those other planets, then you'd be asking, "How come that one instead of this one?" The answer? Because that is where we are.

So let's review: the empirical evidence available can neither confirm nor deny the existence of either a deity or intelligent life on other planets. This does not - nor can it - constitute proof that they do not exist.

But as for the question (if it is being asked, that is), "Why would God create billions upon billions upon billions of worlds if he did not intend them to serve a useful function?" My answer: why do people hang paintings in their living rooms or dens? Why to people buy nice curtains instead of just throwing old bed sheets over their windows? (Well, at least I prefer nice curtains). People do lots of "useless" things for no other reason than mere aesthetics. Of course, as a former Humanities major, I contend there's nothing useless about aesthetics.

Interestingly enough, I just got done reading Out of the Silent Planet, a fiction story that offers a very unique perspective on religion and the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's worth a read. (think reversal: instead of evil aliens invading earth, what if we earthlings were the evil invaders instead?) As soon as I can find my copy of Perelandra (the next in the series), I'm going to start it. Incidentally, you fans of Narnia might appreciate this fantasy of Lewis geared more for adults.

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That's primarily the reason I am an atheist. I look at this and see: "So there's no evidence that there is a god or that there isn't a god...so we're gonna go ahead and say there is a god." I mean, the only real "evidence" is just some words said by other humans....and historically, humans have one heck of an imagination.



Out of curiosity, where does Christianity say he exists?