Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

I still make the claim Should it Matter?

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That's a question, Cola. A claim would be "No, it doesn't matter" or "Yes, it matters".

Toast Paintio Bros.!

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Well, I'm athiest, and I celebrate Christmas. I don't see anything wrong with it really. And for those wondering what a non-religious Christmas should be called, it should be called "Krixmaz".

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For atheists, it's just a great time of festivity and gift-giving. It would be stupid for atheists to pass up an opportunity to have fun. Isn't being free of religious boundaries what atheism is about, anyway? Just to clarify, I'm a devout Christian and celebrate Christmas because of Jesus Christ, and this is just my opinion.

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I am a Pastafarian so I celebrate Holiday. I could not find it in the archives but somewhere on http://www.venganza.org there is a post claiming the word Holiday for the FSM. Before I converted I was an atheist that celebrated Christmas. Although I may of had to do with my relatives ( who happen to be in Christan cults).

Also to the people who were abused by the shool teachers over the pledge of allegiance, all I can say I the same thing happened to me. and so I give you this:
I pledge allegiance, to the FSM, and his Noodly United States. And to the pasta, for which he floats, many United States, under noodles, with ravioli and Parmesan for all.
Note: if you are atheist change FSM to invisible pink unicorn.

Thats my views on the matter

Please tell me you don't take the pastafarian thing seriously. It's probably the most insulting thing ever to people of ANY faith that believes in a supreme being. It's also (more than likely) one of the reasons atheists are (at least in a broad sense) hated by a lot of people.
I pride myself on being nice enough to respect other people's beliefs, even if I don't agree with them, but this FSM thing was purely made up to insult, so it's not worthy of my respect.

As for the "pledge" thing, say it right or don't say it at all. You can't be forced to say it (everything the flag stands for says you don't have to say the pledge if you don't want to).

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Wow, your first couple sentences are almost exactly the same as some the hate mail on the website. As for me taking it seriously, I take it as seriously as a believer of an invisible man in the sky.

As for the pledge I find nothing wrong as you still obey the United states.

Insulting someone's faith just because you don't believe in what they think is just being a jerk. Pastafarianism is just a pretty bad joke that ran its course a long time ago and now is just obnoxious. And the Pledge thing was just supposed to flame, and the reason why it is wrong is just because you are insulting something just for the fun of it.

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GENGHIS KHAN!!!!!

Really? Even though you know some college kids made it up just a few years ago? If so, then do you study ancient languages so you can translate Scriptures? Do you have ordained clergy and seminaries that prepare them? Do you have actual worship services where you administer Sacraments?

Like Rogue, I find this "Pastafarianism" nothing more than a mockery of religion and am actually insulted that you say you take it "as seriously as a believer of an invisible man in the sky." I myself am a believer of the God who was born in Bethlehem and who sacrificed his own life to pay the price for your sins and offer you forgiveness and cleansing.

On the other hand, if taken merely as a joke, it can be fairly amusing. I myself have even attempted to picture what Pastafarian Sacraments would look like. Pouring beer over someone's head as Baptism, eating "The True Pasta and True Sauce of our Lord Sghetti Monster" as Holy Communion, etc.

But it is the sad reality that people often have to resort to mockery when they cannot present a rational disputation of those they disagree with.

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Hey Didy, remember the Toast Paint.

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Huh. Well all my ideas about all that pastafarian crap have already been epxressed by other people...

I don't believe in God, yeah. But I still celebrate Christmas, it's my excuse to spend all my money on presents for the people I love.

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NOT A SIGNATURE!

I disagree. It wasn't invented to insult, but rather as a device to challenge the notion that all beliefs are equal -- no more, no less.

- Kef

I think it was mostly to protest the absurdity of Intelligent Design. That they both have equal amounts of evidence, so FSMism should be taught in the class as well.

....


Ian already said Toastpaint.

So, seriously you guys. TOAST PAINT.

BREAD DYE.

WHATEVER YOU CALL THE GETBACKONTOPICERSON.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

To the best of my understanding, the FSM was made up essentially to exploit a fatal flaw in the Intelligent Design argument: the tendency of ID proponents to make the leap from an Intelligent Designer to the Judeo-Christian concept of a Creator God. To some degree, I have to agree that it is a flaw; after all, empirical observation might or might not point to an intelligent designer, but in and of itself, it cannot reveal anything about such a designer. Thus, the FSM as one alternative to the Judeo-Christian concept of God.

Nevertheless, considering that the creators of the FSM and the IPU did so primarily to demonstrate that not all beliefs have equal validity, it would seem very odd that there are some who claim to actually worship these false deities as part some serious religion. In other words, if you actually do worship the FSM or the IPU in any serious fashion, then the joke is on you.

The FSM as a joke, I can take. Heck, I can even add my own jokes to it. What I cannot stomach is some faker claiming to worship the FSM as seriously as I worship the God I serve.

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Ian, how come is it that you seem to enjoy telling me to toastpaint, but not the others? I'm not the only one contributing to this discussion, you know. You might also notice that my last post in this thread is two days old.

But I will make a half-way decent attempt to get us back on topic, or at least a closely related one. One concern of many Christians is the continued secularization of this holiday, and I have a few comments to make on that.

Kris Morris, a friend of mine who lives in Memphis, was telling me the other day that many of the large mega-churches in his area actually canceled services this past Sunday because of the holiday. He and I are both appalled by this. Now, I can somewhat understand it for a small church like Faith or Good Shepherd, if they anticipated everyone being out of town (and no we didn't), but for a huge mega-church to shut its doors and deprive people of the Word? Atrocious!

What is wrong with those people? Do they honestly think it's a good idea to shut their doors because they only expect 1,000 people instead of their usual 5,000? So, because they're not getting the large numbers they usually expect, they end up depriving faithful Christian people of the Word of God! And they wonder why the holiday has become so secularized!

So, my advice to you, Christian people, if you want to resist the secularizing tendencies of the holiday season, then get your butt in church! Quit complaining about how non-Christians treat the holiday, and reclaim it as a holy day for yourselves by doing what Christians ought to be doing on a holy day: giving thanks to our Lord. Otherwise, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

And incidentally, we did not cancel services at either congregation. Only one person showed up at Faith - which was extremely sad to me. I even stood outside in my vestments hoping maybe some people looking for an open church might stop in (the Assembly of God church next door to us was closed). But Good Shepherd had decent crowds for both the morning service and the evening candlelight service. And next year, I plan to have Christmas services, even if no one shows up for them, because I intend to resist this trend of churches closing their doors on holidays.

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Didy, what you described is strange to me, normally when I am *cough* forced *cough* to go to Christmas eve and Christmas mass they are the most crowded days of the year. We normally have to arrive 45 minutes to an hour early so we don't have to stand. I would think that any other church would be this way as well.

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TIRES TIRES TIRES

I would think so too. Heck, our Christmas Eve service at Good Shepherd had almost twice as many people as our regular Sunday services normally do. But it's not the first time I've heard of this or observed it. Like I said, the Assembly church next door to Faith was closed Sunday morning. The first time I heard it, though, it was about five years ago, and it was Willow Creek that closed. Willow Creek is one of the main proponents of the mega-church movement, which is why I was shocked to hear it. But apparently, that's a trend in mega-churches these days. Again, I have no idea what these people are thinking.

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My home church, Colorado Community, had 5 "candlelight" services on Christmas Eve--2 in the morning and 3 in the evening. I went to one of the evening services; it was splendid.

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The only reason I've heard for canceling services during the holidays is that people have family members in (and those family members may not want to go to that particular church, so, instead of making the church members choose between church and family, its, somehow, easier to cancel services).

It's a pretty weak argument, though. I remember letters in the local paper last year talking about how the churches were "forcing" people to abandon their families for Church. It's pretty funny to me, though, because it seems like Christmas would be the one time Christians REALLY should have church.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Perhaps Christmas-as-in-Christ and Christmas-as-in-commercialism (I mean, gift-giving) should be separated into two different holidays. Keep the secular one in December and move the religious one to, uh, Not December. Maybe take our best estimate as to when Christ was actually born (whatever it is, December 25th isn't it) and put it there.

But, of course, this will never happen because both traditions are so hopelessly intertwined...which is what the problem is in the first place. Kind of ironic, isn't it? The very problem prevents the solution...

- Kef

I have to ask: is there any actual Biblical precedent for celebrating the birth of Jesus? I've been looking into it but haven't found anything yet. It makes sense that Christians would celebrate the birth of Christ, but is there any reason to believe it's actually a sacred day? After mankind selected December 25, did God somehow grant his seal of approval? This thread seems to take for granted that Christmas is a necessary and important Christian holiday. I'll grant that it's a popularly observed holiday and very meaningful in people's minds, but I'm curious to see the evidence that it's actually holy.

Mike

Strong Rad:

I don't recall reading about any church putting a gun to people's heads and making them go to church on Christmas, or hauling them there in shackles or anything of the sort. By having services on Christmas, churches aren't forcing anyone to do anything; however, they are making the Word available to those who want to hear it. On the other hand, by closing their doors, they are depriving God's saints of a chance to hear that Word.

Plus, keep in mind, there are plenty of people who do not have family, and perhaps church is the closest thing they'll have to one on Christmas. I can certainly relate to that, seeing as how my family is a 13 hour drive from here, and my responsibilities make it nearly impossible to visit them.

Mike D:

As I think I stated earlier in this thread, there is no concrete evidence regarding what time of year Jesus was born. St. Luke says he was conceived in the sixth month, but according to what calendar? Not only that, but my recent study of that text seems to suggest that this is the sixth month of the conception of John the Baptist, son of Mary's cousin Elizabeth, and isn't referring to a specific time of year.

Nevertheless, the Church has chosen that date to celebrate it, and I don't think it's a bad thing at all. My point is this: if anyone is going to complain about the secularization (and fundamentalists are usually the loudest voices there), then they would do better to actually be in church on Christmas.

In other words, my exhortation is for Christians to actually celebrate it as a holy day, rather than to complain about those who don't.

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I think they are intertwined for religious meanings though. Christians use gift-giving as a way to celebrate the Magi giving gifts to Jesus and the gift God gave by coming to earth. So it makes sense for Christians to celebrate it as one holiday.

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Which reminds me: Christmas isn't over yet. There's still 9 more days to go.

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That's not precisely what I was getting at. My question is, why celebrate the birth of Jesus at all? Does the Bible instruct Christians to do so, or is it something Christians decided to do on their own? There's nothing wrong with it either way, but I am wondering if there is some actual scriptural directive to do so.

Mike

If you are going to ask that then I will ask you why do we celebrate anyone's birthday?

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I always thought the gift-giving part was tied to St. Nicholas' altruistic nature, as described here (third paragraph).

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I dunno. I'm pretty sure the Church actually BANNED trying to find out when Christ was actually born, let alone celebrating his birthday, for quite a long period into late Medieval times. Or something like that. But later, the Church declared that the 25th was his birth. Most people think they did this to compete with various "Pagan" holidays that occurred around the same time.

Of course, I'm far from an expert on this stuff. Didy or someone might be able to confirm/un-confirm this.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?