Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Okay, I can at least understand arguments for why people don't want to legalize gay marriage, but can anyone tell me why people so readily vote against laws that prevent discrimination (such as with hate crimes or in the work place) based on sexual orientation? What justification do people earnestly feel they have to vote to ALLOW any sort of discrimination to continue?

_________________
The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Probably a misunderstanding.
They probably lump "preventing discrimination" with "Gay Rights". I don't know what's wrong with "Gay Rights" either, but oh well.

Personally, I could care less (and vote to prevent discrimination, although I would probably vote against some sort of gay affirmative action type law if anyone proposed one, but that's more about affirmative action than gays.. OK, so that's ONLY about affirmative action).

_________________
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

That's a possibility...though I totally agree with you--including about the AA thing. I really don't like what Affirmative Action has become. It might have been good to get things started in that past era, but now, it just needs to be totally done away with, since most people are mature enough now to want to hire people based on abilities as opposed to statistics of employee ethnicity and such.

_________________
The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I don't know how I feel on gays right now. On one hand, my religion is against it, on the other hand, they can't CHOOSE to be gay.


I'm young though. I guess my faith will devolop as my age will. And hopefully as my spelling will, because I think I just spelled devolop wrong

_________________
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

I really didn't let my religion shape my views on gay rights.
My view is simple.
If it is a sin, then God will punish them accordingly and nothing on earth would ever really compare to punishment of God. Also, it's God's job to judge sins and sinners. Not mine.
Ok, so I guess my religion DID factor into my opinion. Oh well.

_________________
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Meh. I'm christian, and I dont really see what's wrong with gay people.

The most I've ever seen is quotes taken out of context, and quotes interpretted to mean different things. That often makes the basis for the anti-gay propaganda that I see.

I dont know if there is really anything in the bible that says that people cant be gay. I've never looked, because it doesnt really matter to me. Even if the bible says it, that doesnt necessarily mean that the religion is against it. It just means that some guy said it 2000 years ago, and it has been written down by some guy.

_________________

In case you would like to know what the Bible actually does say on the subject:
The verb here, shakab, indicates sexual relations in this context. In other words, it forbids men from having sexual relations with other men.

Here, homosexuality is viewed both as a result of man's rejection of God, and as a cause for certain man being rejected by God.




In both the 1 Cor and the 1 Tim passages, the term arsenokoites (literally, man-bedder) refers specifically to homosexuality.

I do not believe that passages about male shrine prostitution really contribute much, since the problem there is specifically their service to false gods, and we really don't know what sexual practices were involved anyway.

Also, the passages about Sodom and Gomorrah don't really contribute much, since what they were proposing there was actually rape, and not consensual sex. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their hatred of God and their atrocious treatment of fellow human beings, not specifically for homosexuality.

Keep in mind, I'm only answering the question raised about what the Bible actually says about it, and am myself refraining from addressing the eternal destinies of those who practice it.


I suppose that depends on what you want to make of the Bible. I'm not entirely sure that Christians are at liberty to simply dismiss what the Bible says on any particular topic, considering that it was through these men who spoke and through these men who wrote it down that Christ chose to reveal himself to us. At the very least, we need a better reason than the one given for proposing that it is safe to ignore it.

_________________

Still, Didy, even if Christ DID reveal himself to the people who wrote the Bible, they're still people. And people make mistakes. It's just something they do. It's completely arbitrary to think that every single word in the Bible is absolute truth. I personally am not Christian (as if you didn't know this already), but it doesn't seem like something that would make sense to me even if I was Christian.

_________________
So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

But Einoo, even if we were to SUPPOSE that they COULD BE were mistaken on this issue (which, by the way, seems to be a recurring idea in Scripture, i.e., attested by more than one source and more than one author), what assurance can we have that they actually ARE mistaken? And this isn't even considering that we Christians believe these men to be writing under the guidance of God anyway.

Let me put it to you this way: if someone were to tell you, "There's a rattlesnake in that bush," would you simply dismiss their claims, saying, "It's probably just a garter snake; he's probably just mistaken," or "There's probably no snake in there"? At the very least, I'd hope you consider that he might just be telling the truth. Especially if he happens to be a wildlife expert, as we believe the apostles and prophets to be experts in their own fields.

_________________

Aaaand toast paint.

_________________

OK, but the reason it shows up written by probably more than one person is because that was the attitude toward gay people at the time. That's obvious.

The second part doesn't really make much sense: The Bible being true wouldn't cause (immediate) harm to people who didn't believe it, but if you say there's a snake in that bush, I'm definitely gonna play it safe until it's definitely proven that there isn't one. Admittedly, just because something MIGHT be a mistake doesn't automatically mean that it IS, but the arguments against gays seem so ridiculous that I believe it probably was a mistake of the authors.

_________________
So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

Here are the ten best reasons to keep gay marriage illegal. This list has been passed around the net for a little while now, so some of you might've seen it before.

------------

01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Well then, by that logic wouldn't you believe the Bible until it was proven false? Just a thought.

_________________

Einoo:

I'm not so sure the argument stands, though, Einoo. To reject an idea because it doesn't fee right doesn't make a very strong case. In either case, you might happen to notice that I was addressing the concerns of a fellow Christian. That being the case, the ultimate authority resides with God anyway, and part of what we Christians believe is that these men were authorized to speak on God's behalf. For that reason, I was suggesting to Bwave that he consider whether or not we have good reason to believe these men were not speaking on God's behalf when these were written.

Not only that, but I'm not sure the snake in the bush analogy doesn't apply. In fact, I chose the snake because that was the form which the Father of Lies adapted in the very beginning in order to deceive and to bring death into Paradise. The danger may not be immediate, but it is eternal, and that, in my own thought, makes it that much more drastic.

ED:

I'm not really sure whether people "choose" to be gay at all. I don't think people in general can control how they may feel about another person. I do, however, believe that people can control how they act on such impulses. Hey, I'm straight, but both as a concern for plain old decency and as a concern for my current career, I don't sleep around; I am a heterosexual who has chosen to abstain.

But to get us back on topic, I'm speaking only as a theologian addressing Bwave's and Einoo's concerns about the Bible. As for legislation concerning issues related to homosexuality, I'd rather leave that up to politicians to discuss. It is my own belief that the New Testament discusses it primarily in the context of explaining that this is something Christians do not do.

_________________

Sorry, my computer was going really slow, and I was trying to edit that post 'cause it didn't come out right. I was about to clarify that I was talking about actions, not thoughts, and some other stuff, but now I think I'm just gonna delete that part of it since it doesn't matter anyways.

_________________

Then by the same logic, wouldn't you want to follow ALL religions until they are ALL proven false (see Pascal's Wager)?

Didy: THANK YOU for being a Christian knowledgable enough about the Bible to see that Sodom and Gomorrah were about rape and mistreatment of others and NOT about homosexuality. It's honestly very refreshing to see someone from your side of the playing field actually acknowledging this interpretation of the story instead of just saying "OMGWTFBBQ EVIL GAYS!!!" in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah like I hear time and time again...even not being Christian I can see the real reasons why God (as defined by the Bible) destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

But to get everything back on topic...does the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality create a legitimate excuse (keeping in mind that our nation is generally thought to practice a seperation of Church and State) to vote AGAINST legislation that would make it punishable to discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation? In other words, does the Christian belief in the immorality of homosexuality constitute reason to be discriminatory and hateful/hurtful towards gays both de facto AND de jure?

_________________
The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Not that I can see. In fact, I'd want to say that it gives Christians an obligation to promote equality and justice, at least in areas where civil justice is concerned.

Oh, and incidentally. About Pascal's Wager: in itself, the Wager does not constitute a sound argument to follow any particular faith. However, what most people forget is the Wager's context within The Pensees (which itself was an incomplete work - Pascal died before he could finish compiling his notes). The Wager was intended to get people thinking: Isn't this issue important enough to carefully consider? The rest of The Pensees actually offer more specific reasons why one should consider the Christian faith rather than another. Not only that, but people who appeal to the Wager usually do so in a rather simplistic fashion, so it is understandable why many do not wish to take it seriously.

Oh, and you're welcome. I was just being honest, though.

_________________

Going back to the original topic... the sad fact is that many people in this country (not to mention other countries) think that anybody they disagree with should be heavily persecuted, whether they openly state that or not. In the same vein, anything they disagree with should be illegal. Thoughts like these have been, still are, and will continue to be the basis for many ridiculous laws.

- Kef

loel.

anyway. I really deeply dislike gay discrimination. I can understand if you don't want gay marriage (although i have my own opinions) but how many ties do we have to go through periods of disgusting oppression of black slaves, of women, before we realize that forcing people out of the way DOES NOT make them disappear!

Homosexulity is here to stay. It has been, um... FOREVER. And now people are identifying themselves, and becoming proud of who they are, so we have a choice: try to force them onto the margins, causing anger and eventually a heck of a lot of tension, anger, etc. or we can accept them just as people.
like um, that guy i ignore on the sidewalk.
or like the grocery store clerks i don't say hi to.
or like everyone else who doesn't matter to me.
because i know it doesn't make a lick of difference in my day when people who are different are treated fairly.

I don't understand why people don't want to legalize gay marriage. There are basically two premises that it all boils down to, neither of which are very good.

1) Marriage has always been man and a woman, it's just tradition. Because, obviously, whatever is an established tradition should remain unchanged. If you'll excuse me, I have to go check out and see how Tobey's doing in the fields.

2) The Bible says it's wrong. Well that's great. Bible says a lot of things are wrong, and it doesn't matter because I don't believe in the Bible.

If anyone can give me an actual, tangible, rationally-concluded rammification that legalized gay marriage will bring about (that DOESN'T involve slippery slope reasoning) I will be more than willing to reconsider my views.

_________________

You forgot #3: "It's just disgusting." More or less the argument my grandfather uses. I also think a lot of people (but by no means all) who claim their belief is #1 or #2 really just have belief #3 and are using one of the others as a cover.

As for #3, though, I'd like to roughly paraphrase what Bill Maher said ('cause I'm only recalling this from memory): "I think most people just think it's disgusting, and, frankly, I do too. But I don't try to change my opinion into the law."

- Kef

Being Gay is punishable. God hates no one, but this sexual orientation is generally shameful in the eyes of God. According to scripture, I believe that no one is denied God's kingdom who accepts the trinity. If you truly believe in the trinity, you are not denied. But here is how it ties-in here: alot of gays I've met are very unchristian people. While I am their friend on Earth, because they are not christians, they will not walk with me in heaven. I fGod lets me go. U love my friend Max to death, and I can admit I almost have a crush on him, but he is not a christian in any scence. I am not gay, btw, I gust don't find it all that bad a sin. I don't explore that sin, so I don't feel bad about my demeaner. I don't entirly agree with the homosexual orientation, but I have expressed it before, and I don't think It will go any further.

I don't thin God tells us to show disrespect for these people, because you are to "love thy neighbor" and that means "everybody" in my book.
So I stand on the side for gay-rights, they are people...even if I don't condone their ways.

_________________
Ragnarök is coming: Cthulhu is on your side!

But Steve, what about the gays that are Christian? Are they going to be denied the kingdom of heaven?

_________________

as I said in my last post, NO. They will not be denied. After all, God understands that people are weak. If he were to turn away everyone with a minor sin, no human would ever go to heaven. Acording to scripture, the only sin that will land you in hell (wich to me is not a place of suffering, more of a place of the ultimate punishment: seperation from God) is the denial of the truth and love of God. Gays that fully except God will, then, go to heaven. While they are sinners, so is everybody else you will EVER speak to. But, petty sins don't send you to hell, at least that's what my church teaches.

_________________
Ragnarök is coming: Cthulhu is on your side!

Recall the time period before God was considered All forgiving:
People feared God, and if they didn't fear god and pray and worship him, they would burn in hell.
People followed every word of the bible, even down to the last period, and persecuted those that didn't. And those that didn't, would go to hell.
Showing Skin,(Ankles, chest, shoulders, ect.) was considered Adultery, which, according to the bible then, was a sin, and would send them to hell.
Some of our most basic instincts are considered Sins:
Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride.
Laziness is a sin, yet its something we all do, ALL the time. Anger is a sin, which means that every time someone gets mad, they're going to hell. Jealousy is something we all feel; Just the other day, I was jealous because this dude brought a Double Neck guitar to school, so I'm going to hell for that. Today, I felt pride because I looked good. I'm going to hell for that too. If we were to follow every single word of the bible, end to end, we would all be going to hell when Jesus comes back.

_________________

If justice was the only thing considered in our judgment, then yes, you would be right. But that's where the atonement of Christ comes in. He took all of the sins of everyone that ever lived and will live on himself, if we repent and always do the best that we can to keep the commandments.
There's a parable in the Bible that better illustrates this. There are three men in the parable. There are the Debtor, the Creditor, and the Mediator. We are the Debtors. God is the creditor. God gives us all that we have, but expects us to follow his commandments in return. This is the law of justice. Justice must be satisfied. We, obviously, are weak, and cannot be perfect as he wants us to be. That's where the mediator, Jesus, comes in. He pays our debt for us, as long as we promise to keep trying as hard as we can to do what's right. That is the law of mercy and justice.

Make sense?

_________________

If they acknowledge that Christ is their savior and repent of their sins, then I don't think there's any reason that they wouldn't be. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, just like telling a little white lie.

It becomes tricky when they don't think it is a sin. We can repent of sins that we are aware and unaware of, but I'm not sure if that lies under sins we're unaware of.

I'm not exactly sure though. I'm sure Didy would have a good answer though...

yes, Didy, would you care to enlighten us on what you and/or scriptue has to say about this?

_________________
Ragnarök is coming: Cthulhu is on your side!

He did, A few posts up.

_________________

he mentioned nothing about whether or not they will be saved.