Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

My profound sympathy is extended for the families of those who died.
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This is a good time for personal application, now. May I suggest to forumers here: that each one here should take account (run a mental simulation) of what you would do if you were faced by a clearly bent personality, like this man, Cho Seung-Hui, evidenced himself to be. Consider now while your proxy wound is fresh, because if/when you are personally faced with something like this, you will not have time to think of "what to do", and the result will be bad. Fight back. Pick up the nearest heavy lourde and blast the whack-job with it, calling on all men to follow your example; even if you die, you fought. And for you who are men: that is how a man should behave. I would also make the lesser point: that if every student on campus were armed and duly trained, only a fraction of the current mortality would have happened. And yes, I know there is no agreement over gun control here. This world is cursed, so people would have died even so, with an armed student population or without (as is very clear just now). In EVERY case, we should know of the curse -- deeply -- and plan accordingly.

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

It's very easy to armchair quarterback your way through this, barwhack. I'm not saying that you could/couldn't would/wouldn't fight back, but what one is saying they would do in a situation and what they actually would do can be two very different things.

Bullets change things. It's pretty hard to do anything when some nut job walks into a room and starts shooting people. I mean, what good do any plans do if/when you're the first one shot.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Indeed. But if you have no plan going in, there is NO CHANCE you will have a positive outcome. If you have a plan, and you execute it imperfectly, it will be perhaps better than worst. And if you have a good plan, wholly executed, you will have the best chance to live (and hopefully save your friends). It is very easy to armchair; my purpose was to encourage an introspective moment, though. Not to judge even the actions (much less the preparation or intent) of any VT students/faculty/staff/police. What is news if not a vehicle to encourage reflection?

Perhaps we have some lurking marines or somesuch that might comment?

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

I have another suggestion: if you know people who seem lonely and troubled, try treating them with dignity and respect, perhaps even compassion. Don't pick on people, needlessly insult them, or kick them when they're down. Not everyone who turns violent can be reached, no. But some can. An ounce of prevention, all that. Read about the many warning signs Seung Cho gave off long before he did this and keep your eyes open.

I do agree that it's better to go down fighting than hiding under your desk in a kill-or-be-killed situation like this shooting obviously was. Unlike the previous poster, however, I wouldn't suggest that only men fight. Women are perfectly capable of defending themselves. I'll tell you from experience that guys who talk big are usually the first to cave when the pressure's on. Don't rely on them to defend you. Learn to stand up for yourselves. (I probably don't need to tell most of you that as it is.)

A little bio about me, then: in real life I am a professional martial arts instructor. The man who trained me is an ex-Marine (a drill instructor, no less) and a Vietnam vet. It doesn't get much more alpha male than that, folks. Still, he'd be the first to tell you that violence is always your last resort. If any violent confrontation can be avoided or defused, do so. No matter who you are or what you know, the situation can end very badly for you. However, in a case like Virginia Tech, your only choice is to resist, either by barricading the door (as some did) or by going after the perp with whatever you've got. In the majority of situations, however, try to find the nonviolent path or your life could be forever altered for the worse.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

I am not a warrior, so I definitely defer to you on this.

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. - Robert Burns

It doesn't matter how good you plan is there is a very high probability that it will go awry. In a situation like that where the shooter eliminated all normal escape routes, you go by what your instincts tell you. And in that situation your instincts are telling you one thing, Survive. You do that by either hiding until the coast is clear or finding an alternate means of escape. One thing you don't do is go after the shooter, for you chances of survival decline exponentially. Heroics will only lead to a death in vain.

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This isn't heroics I'm trying to encourage here, but thought. You said it yourself: that all escape had been cut off. The instinct to survive, in that situation, is to turn and fight (or better -- to recognize, having never turned away, that you have to fight). I am not a warrior of any stripe, nor am I a martial artist. I defer to such minds and opinions, but this issue is worth thinking about: "What would I do, if I could not run?" I don't like the answer, "die".

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

Turning and fighting will not lead to survival. If the guy has a gun, you have lost before you have even started. A bullet will beat a fist everytime. A survival instinct will tell you to hide. It is hard to kill what you can't see.

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You gotta catch him when he's reloading. Chances of that are slim and none, though, unless you're really close to him, in which case you're probably already dead.

I suppose it could/would be possible to catch them when they're distracted, but you'd have to be really lucky.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Sometimes it's not about your own survival. A grenade is thrown into a foxhole, one soldier jumps on it and saves his friends' lives.

Scrawny kid has two pistols. Three of four people rush him when he start shooting and there's a good chance shooter gets subdued. Maybe two or even three of the people who go at him get shot, maybe they're even killed, but it takes a very accurate shot with a .22 to kill someone.

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See, the problem is, you're thinking semi-rationally. It's hard to do that when bullets are flying towards you.

Sitting on the couch in my apartment, I'm "sure" that if someone were to walk into my office tomorrow and start shooting that I'd stab them in the throat with a letter opener if they had their back to my cubicle wall.

If/when bullets start flying, though, it's just as likely that I'll dive under my desk.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

We see examples of people acting heroically under stress. But I agree with what you're saying... that it's probably not reasonable to expect average people to risk their lives in the blink of an eye.

I guess I just believe if there had been a few extraordinary people in that building, the body count would have been a lot less.

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I feel bad for not being devastated by this.

Not that it's not horrible, it is... it's just... I guess I'm not that kind of person.

I can't believe the school didn't alert ANYONE about this except in a freaking email though. What were they thinking?!

Terrible... That's all I can say about this, really.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

This is the sort of thing I'm encouraging: thought -- which will lead to conditioning of subconscious/instant behavior -- when faced with an already considered situation. If you do not think of how you should behave when pressed, you will not behave as you should; your behavior will be other than it should be, in other words. And yes, acting might end in your death; which isn't great for you. Living a coward isn't great either, actually worse in my opinion; and yes, there is some bravado in saying that. I have a confident expectation (hope) that I would behave honorably, even if ineptly. I don't know the right way to behave here, but it should alarm us all (and cause us all to plan contingencies) that we -- our society -- can produce the sort of person that would do this. Perhaps *I* need training; perhaps you do. Another good thought.

As for Mike D's observation about women fighting, I agree. I was only addressing the men, though, because ... I'm vested there ... I am one.

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

This is sorta what I mean -- on a corporate level. The VT administration (until now) have not thought out how they would react to such an outlying situation. Were it to happen again soon, they would shut the campus down immediately -- I have no doubt. They have been forced by events to think; now they've learned the hard way. Same sort of thing as 9.11 really. Nobody foresaw it; many said "why didn't they do something to prevent it". It's hard, and I'm an advocate of addressing the hard things when there is leisure to consider; and of recognizing that "they" is "we".

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

I happened to share this sentiment. But you know what they say about speaking ill of the dead.




I don't think that VT being gun-free is necessarily the point that they are trying to get across here. I believe the issue is the attaining of firearms in general. Honestly, if he didn't get those handguns from that gun shop, we all know he could've strutted over to the Wal-Mart and gotten a rifle that same day. I think the point they are trying to get across here is that the handling of firearms by distributors and lawmakers is entirely irresponsible.

In the case of handguns, people who buy them generally say it is for "self-defense." This is a blanket reason that for many, could be true, but in many cases isn't. Most gun owners are not in the imminent danger that could truly justify owning a firearm, so why own one? Is someone really after you that badly that you simply must have one?

And then there are rifles, shotguns, etc... Use for hunting. Could just as easily be used as a murder weapon. I know people that hunt, but it never appealed to me, seeing as how we are no longer nomadic and have garnered the technology of agriculture and the wonder of the market. Even though I don't like it, I'd rather see someone use every piece of the animal than just cut it's head off, mount its head and then discard the rest. But, I digress. These are so easy to attain that it's sickening. I think that there should be much heavier regulation on these type of firearms.

With as much as I'd like to see firearms inaccessible to the general public (as well as and ESPECIALLY police forces in general circumstance... of course if there were another Waco, it would be okay that purpose only), I know that since so many are on the market now, it would be too far out to see in my lifetime or at all. I personally think it should be much more difficult to attain a fire arm. No more of this one-weekend safety training crap, I'm meaning consultation with a psychologist on top of more safety training (at least 3 months) on top of having a really good reason to own one rather than it just being another Freudian phallic extension.

The rest of the civilized world is doing just fine with the stricter laws they have regarding firearms. But, that is only one place where 'Merica needs to catch up.

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We might well get there Deathly -- just hopefully after I'm either dead or moved far away. And then -- because the legitimate citizens will follow the law -- only the criminals will have guns; them and the government -- which will be excepted from the no-gun rule. WE -- assuming I don't actually escape -- will then potentially face either mafia rule or militarism. The Founding Fathers wisely included the "right to bear arms" because they knew of the tendency of governments to rule, rather than represent. Government is based in the threat of force, and the FF put the threat in the hands of the people that elected the officials. This provision is made to strike fear into the heart of the government itself: fear of armed and successful rebellion if rulership in the name and best interest of the people is not maintained. This is a provision to keep democracy democratic... The "right to bear arms" wasn't just so folks back then could hunt...

A modern parable:
Cars kill a whole lot of people each year. We should restrict the use of cars, stringently screen those who buy them, and be hypervigilant over anyone who uses them. Cars kill people.

But really, people who drive cars kill people. And people who use guns kill people. And people who use knives kill people. Cars, guns and knives don't do it by themselves. Let's address the real problem: people that kill people. And it's hard to see that without removing the build up of preformed opinion surrounding guns. I hope the car illustration helps. And I hope we find a way to deal with people like Cho Seung-Hui, before they do this sort of thing.

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

People kill people.
and sometimes sharks do to.

For some reason, that really amused me.

However, because I'm a nitpicker, I'd like to say that fatal shark attacks are VERY rare. In fact, you're much more likely to be struck by lightning than to be killed by a shark. This, however, is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the issue at hand, so I'll let the smart people go on. I've already expressed my opinion.

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Move, then. You won't find many other countries that will let you own a gun. But, if you read my post, at this point... it will be too far off or impossible to eliminate gun ownership as a whole. That is why I stated an alternative to banning them.



The law isn't always what's right. They need to have all their marbles, as well.



The government is full of criminals, so it would be one sect over the other in the first place. And, guns or no, the government will always strike fear into the hearts of it's citizens, unless they are willing to actually utilize what democracy is and not just give it lip service on the basis of unnecessary paranoias, lies and corporate scandal.

Ugh... put that way... mafia rule sounds much better. At least I could get a nicer watch.



Militarism wouldn't shock me, at this point.



With what's going on now... I'm not touching that, because those who know me know where I would go and know what I would say. So why bear to repeat it?



Read the entirety of my post...

But, like the snakes that most people are, democracy isn't quite so democratic. But, like I said before... I'm not going to bother reiterating my immense disagreement with the current regime.



I understand and advocate personal responsibility, but the idea is this. Guns were made to kill and to serve no other purpose, something Nachos, Rifles and Alcohol forget to realize. Cars were built for transportation. One has a more vital purpose than the other, and I'm sure most people would say it's the car. Cars are a necessary part of society with the way technology is going. Vehicular homicide is a very small percentage of homicides. More homicides are committed with guns than cars.



Why do you think I put up the alternative of a psychological battery to be administered before purchase of a firearm could be made. If people feel the desire to have a lead-shooting phallus-extension, they should be screened on more than just their background and have a good reason why they feel they need a gun.

And you failed to answer my question... why do you need one?

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Back when "firearms" meant "muskets" an armed populace could resist the government if need be. These days, however, our handguns and sporting arms would do little against their assault rifles, tanks, jets, choppers, artillery, etc. The old "it's to defend us against our government" argument doesn't hold much water anymore in terms of gun control.

If this is going to continue to develop into a gun control thread it may be time for someone to start one, or to resurrect an old one.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

Agreed.

Toastpaint.

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*sighs*. Agreed. This was getting no where anyway; my stated purpose wasn't getting accomplished, seemingly -- to encourage a fresh evaluation of "how to react if VT happened to me". As well, I see the "Gun Control" thread has indeed been resurrected.

Thanks for the discussion; especially Mike D -- whose comments actually moved my position on the side-issue, VT("Fighting Back"), more than any other in this thread; the second step away from the main thread, VT(FB(guns)) was my mistake ... *apologizes*; I try to stay within one step of the main theme, usually. Failed; will do better. :\

And back to the main theme of this thread: VT and Cho. Those of you who are spiritual, pray the prayers that you know how, at least for the families that survive the dead. I will.

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Too big to be my avatar, but I like it.

What they said...

But, down to business, this was a horrible event. I can't imagine what the dead people's friends and family are going through, or the students. What I want to know is, what was the point? Taking the lives of all those people, and for what? What did he achieve but this horrendous act? He killed 32 people plus himself, if he REALLY, REALLY, wanted to kill himself, why not just kill himself? Why cause others such endless sorrow, grief, and fear?

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You're playing Team Fortess 2... you are a heavy and you have two medics... you are taking out everone on the other team so easy... another medic aproaches... THEN HE TURNS INTO A SPY AND STABS YOU IN THE SPINE!
SPY PWNS ALL!

Don't forget. This guy was one or two sandwiches short of a full picnic basket. He doesn't think the way a normal person does.

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I wasn't informed of this picnic. Did Yogi Bear steal it from us again?

Dear God, that was tasteless.

I did hear some kid got arrested for a class discussion or something where he was being sympathetic towards the gunman. I mean, and I'm worried of saying it, but I am also. For the mental reason and all the flak the media's throwing at him. Personally, everyone is human and pure. It's just what electical responses inside our brain fire in some combination that can make someone do this. But if I try to say that in school, then I'd likely be arrested or maybe suspended for it. Regardless if it's right or wrong, and 99.99% of the peoples think wrong.

I mean, what I'm trying to get to, is that he's human and a person. Human for the flaws, and person for the personality. That's what everyone essentially is. Evolution didn't make us perfect super species protected from all of us ever going on a rampage.

And even if he only did kill himself, that still wouldn't have solved the problems he had. Regardless of whether he wanted help in the first place. I mean, he has a family. I'm sure they feel remorse over their son's loss, and also the loss of others.

I just rambled like Tigre Inverso, so umm... no heckling at hypocrisy, please. I mean, you can, but I prefer not to.

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I am so sad that this happened. It's horrible. But we cannot live in constant fear. Just because this may happen doesn't mean we should spend every waking moment worrying that we will die. If we do, we're not really living then, either.

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G D G G A B C D D D Eb F G G G F Eb F Eb D D C C D Eb D C Bb Bb C D C Bb A A Bb C Eb D D D D D D D

It just so happens I have a webcomic...
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?t=10852

Heh...don't fret. Comedy helps us all move on with life.


I think for me, I feel SORRY for the gunman, but I don't really SYMPATHISE with him - to me, that would suggest that I understand what he did, and I don't. I won't flame your for it, Chicken, 'cause I don't think you're a bad person or anything...but after seeing those videos the gunman sent to NBC....it's like he thought he was in a movie. He was so fake. Almost like he didn't really understand the magnitude of what he'd done/was going to do. Which suggests to me that he's NUTS. So, I don't sympathise with him, but I do feel sorry for the very, VERY ill individual that he was.

I sympathise with the victims and their families.

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Truly a sad incident. And that's all I'm gonna say.

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Eh, I felt the same as John Stewart on this one. Seeing us having such a huge effect to 33 people dieing in a massacre when hundred die in one day in Iraq. Really hits home.

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TIRES TIRES TIRES