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Pick the response that most accurately applies.
I believe in evolution and I am not an atheist. 19%  19%  [ 15 ]
I believe in evolution and I am an atheist. 44%  44%  [ 34 ]
I am a young earth creationist. 13%  13%  [ 10 ]
I am an old earth creationist. 9%  9%  [ 7 ]
I believe in Intelligent Design. 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
I don't know what to believe. 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Other. 8%  8%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 78
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:08 am 
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I'm pretty sure I am. Even in my own Synod.

Keep in mind, those of you reading this reply, that I normally read the Bible literally in other places (except where the context itself warrants a nonliteral reading).

Ooh! Ooh! TOTPD! :eekdance: :eekdance: :eekdance: :eekdance: :eekdance: :eekdance: :eekdance:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:42 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Thank you for that enlightening exposition concerning Einstein's intended meaning in that statement. I did not know the full context of it. Thank you for sharing that.


That's what I've been trying to tell you. More than once, I think. :P

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However, I still stand by my earlier post, in which I stated that scientists should be respected according to their contributions to science, not by their theology, and that to call a scientist stupid just because they believe in creation is simple closed-minded bigotry. There were two microbiologists in my home church.


I agree that it would be fallacious to ignore a scientist because of some particular religious belief. Though when people say things like "Creationist scientists are stupid", they mean not that the person is stupid but that the particular belief is stupid. It's a rather insulting way of phrasing it, but it's still not the same thing, and, in my opinion, a rather reasonable point of view, though not really phrased in a reasonable way.

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Also, I do not believe that science and theology are mutually exclusive. However, since science can only touch the realm of observable phenomena, it is ill-equipped to address the issue of God's existence.


If, as you suggest, the existence of God cannot be observed, then what does it matter?


Last edited by furrykef on Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:13 pm 
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As a clergyman and Christian theologian myself, I would not concede that the belief itself is stupid. Calling orthodox Christianity stupid IS the same as calling Christians stupid. It's one thing to say that you disagree with someone, but to call them stupid or even to call their beliefs stupid is ad hominem, and in civilized circles that's a no-no. (Except for that godhatesfags guy. He is stupid, and so is his belief).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:23 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
(Except for that godhatesfags guy. He is stupid, and so is his belief).


Heck yeah.

Ignorance gets on my nerves. So do intolerance.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:28 am 
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Didymus wrote:
As a clergyman and Christian theologian myself, I would not concede that the belief itself is stupid. Calling orthodox Christianity stupid IS the same as calling Christians stupid. It's one thing to say that you disagree with someone, but to call them stupid or even to call their beliefs stupid is ad hominem, and in civilized circles that's a no-no. (Except for that godhatesfags guy. He is stupid, and so is his belief).


I found that post pretty hilarious - it would have been a very good point if not for the appendix at the end.

Well, according to what you said in the Religious Affiliations topic, you believe that God hates me because I am an atheist. Therefore, you are stupid, and so is your belief.

(Note: I do not actually believe you to be stupid, I was just making a point.)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:23 pm 
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Upsilon wrote:
Well, according to what you said in the Religious Affiliations topic, you believe that God hates me because I am an atheist.


Actually, he didn't say that. One of the best ways to lose an argument is to make erroneous assumptions that the other party will focus on instead of your actual argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:35 pm 
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Thanks, IJ. I certainly don't remember telling Upsilon that God hates him.

When God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," he did not mean that he intended to destroy Esau out of sheer spite. As a matter of fact, he cared for Esau and provided all sorts of good things for him, too. In the context, God was saying that Jacob was his chosen one, not Esau--chosen to be the father of his nation.

One of the things I keep noticing about God over and over again is that he simply is not fair. Good, honest, hard-working people like Esau end up with the short end of the stick (well, not terribly short--God did bless him), while sleasy, good-for-nothing criminal types like Jacob (whose very name is a synonym for "deceiver") get all the breaks. Look who Jesus liked to hang out with. The religious types? No. With prostitutes, drunks, IRS personnel, thieves, etc. Heck, the only people to recognize Jesus as the Son of God during his life were Peter (who quickly forgot what it meant), a Roman Soldier, and a thief. Even one of the greatest saints in history, the Apostle Paul, was a murderer and a destroyer of the Church. I'm not sure why this is, except that maybe he gave himself more for people who need him more.

For that reason, I think it's highly inconsistent for someone to say God hates anyone because of particular issues in their life. I have learned first hand, for example, that God loves drug addicts. I have seen a man cry over stealing from his mother to buy drugs. Yet I have also seen God's hand on his life, bringing him to the Dom and motivating him to stay clean. And his is just one of a dozen or so stories I could tell you.

So maybe God even loves that godhatesfags dude. It's just that he's so busy proclaiming hatred, he can't see it so clearly. That to me is sad. But God will not force us to see what we do not wish to see; this man refuses to see God's unconditional love for others, so he will not see it for himself.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:53 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
So maybe God even loves that godhatesfags dude. It's just that he's so busy proclaiming hatred, he can't see it so clearly. That to me is sad. But God will not force us to see what we do not wish to see; this man refuses to see God's unconditional love for others, so he will not see it for himself.


I went and counter protested one of his son's protests (Fred Phleps, for those who may have missed it....his son's name escapes me now). He, his wife, two other women and a couple of very young girls went around Asheville, North Carolina protesting at different churches that were known for allowing ANYONE (ie: homosexuals) to worship there. I was extremely disturbed by their signs they held "Matt Shepard, 5 years (I forget how long ago he was killed) in h[ades]" - he even went so far as to say that our soldiers in Iraq were going to h[ades]...that really upset me. I think the most disturbing thing was seeing the youngest girl - she was probably about 5 or 6 - stomping on the American flag.

Yes, Didymus, God loves these people, even if they don't love anyone else. They even made fun of women in the crowd who had short hair, saying they were lesbians...We didn't talk to him at all. We just followed him around all day and basically served as a counter-presence.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:20 am 
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I am a creationist. Personally, I love God and I thank Him every day for creating this wonderful world for us, and apologize for our entire race for botching it up.

One little aside: If you measure tear gland enzymes, we are actually related more closely to the chicken. Yes, I know that's a weak argument that any of you could destroy in a matter of seconds, but I thought it was funny. ;)

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Marzipan_and_Carol wrote:
One little aside: If you measure tear gland enzymes, we are actually related more closely to the chicken. Yes, I know that's a weak argument that any of you could destroy in a matter of seconds, but I thought it was funny. ;)


Looking at my brother (and some friends) I could think of many other animals that he may have evolved from :p i keed i keed.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:25 am 
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I think the world was created by God but there was still evolution. I belive everything God does was a explnation that humas can prove through logic or science. Like the dinosaurs, if there weren't dinosaurs there would be no oil. Oil is what has allowed the human to develope new technology. I also belive God cannot control free will.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:28 am 
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Prof. No wrote:
Like the dinosaurs, if there weren't dinosaurs there would be no oil.


What are you talking about, KC? The vast majority of oil came from decayed plant life. I can't imagine that dinosaurs provided more than a small fraction of that.

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Last edited by InterruptorJones on Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:39 am 
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The bodily waste of the dinosaurs in fact even the bones themselves decomposed over time into oil not just the plant life of the pre-historic age. Indeed the plant life would be the majoirity of oil. I was using dinosaurs as an example in the context of evolution. Since the bible says that humans were created in the beging it doesn't says anything on the dinosaurs, you see that was the point I was trying to get across.


Last edited by Professor No on Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:05 am 
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I also belive God cannot control free will.

Of course not! If He controlled free will, it wouldn't be free. That's exactly the kind of logical contradiction I pointed out earlier.

However, it remains to be proven that humans have what some people like to call free will. Scripture does say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so there is at least one instance of Him exercising control over the human will.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:58 am 
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Prof. No wrote:
The bodily waste of the dinosaurs in fact even the bones themselves decomposed over time into oil not just the plant life of the pre-historic age. Indeed the plant life would be the majoirity of oil. I was using dinosaurs as an example in the context of evolution. Since the bible says that humans were created in the being it doesn't says anything on the dinosaurs, you see that was the point I was trying to get across.

I really can't make out any point in what you just said. What are you talking about?

Decomposed into oil? Are you talking about the biogenic theory of the formation of petroleum?

And what do you mean when you say "humans were created in the being"?

You might want to read Wikipedia's article on fossil fuel.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:25 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
However, it remains to be proven that humans have what some people like to call free will. Scripture does say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so there is at least one instance of Him exercising control over the human will.


I wonder if the phrases that state that God hardened Pharaoh's heart are just poor translations, or errors in transcribing from thousands of years ago. Otherwise, it just doesn't seem in line with God's plan. If God hardened our hearts himself, how could we be subjected to the consequences?


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racerx_is_alive wrote:
Otherwise, it just doesn't seem in line with God's plan.


What plan? Didymus, does the Bible mention any specific plan, apart from saying "god has a plan that we aren't meant to know"? Does it even say that, or is it just assumed?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:01 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
racerx_is_alive wrote:
Otherwise, it just doesn't seem in line with God's plan.


What plan? Didymus, does the Bible mention any specific plan, apart from saying "god has a plan that we aren't meant to know"? Does it even say that, or is it just assumed?


God DOES have a plan, a plan for salvation, but you'd have to have a base knowledge of biblical history and chronology and whatnot to really lay it out.

I think Didymus was referring to God's general salvation plan. Am I correct, D?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:05 pm 
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Well, yes, there's that plan. But I was wondering if there's a more specific (or obscure?) plan that racerx might have been referring to when he says the hardening-of-the-heart thing "just doesn't seem in line with God's plan". I only have a vague knowledge of the plan-for-salvation, but I don't see how that incident necessarily contradicts that plan.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:16 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Well, yes, there's that plan. But I was wondering if there's a more specific (or obscure?) plan that racerx might have been referring to when he says the hardening-of-the-heart thing "just doesn't seem in line with God's plan". I only have a vague knowledge of the plan-for-salvation, but I don't see how that incident necessarily contradicts that plan.


Oops. I meant Racerx...not Didymus...

Anywho, even all the events in Egypt were a part of that salvation plan. Because of that, Israel was able to move to the place where they would eventually settle, which led to this, which led to that, which led to Jesus' birth.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:12 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
Well, according to what you said in the Religious Affiliations topic, you believe that God hates me because I am an atheist.


Actually, he didn't say that.


Not explicitly. This is what he said:

Didymus wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
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Our choice it may be, but ultimately, anything that happens has to be allowed to happen by God, surely? I don't have to help myself before God "can" help me, because presumably, he "can" do anything, which I presume includes saving me from Hell - which, if he loves me so much, he should do.

He could, but why should he? The way you make it sound, God MUST because he CAN, and somehow his love is supposed to completely override his justice. Maybe the plain and simple truth is that he doesn't love everyone the same. "Jacob I love, Esau I hated."


And so I am led to believe that my final destination is judged by how God favours me. He loves Christians with all his heart, therefore he grants them eternal happiness. On the other hand, he will let infidels suffer eternal torture, because... you can figure out the obvious conclusion, I'm sure.

Didymus wrote:
I certainly don't remember telling Upsilon that God hates him.


Which, in fact, you didn't. But, as I said, the implied logical conclusion of what you said is that God doesn't like me enough to save me from my everlasting agony.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:51 pm 
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http://www.drdino.com

Just check it out. It turned my beliefs around because it's so simple and true. I just don't argue on the subject anymore like I used to. I bought the 37 DVD set. Money WELL spent.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:18 pm 
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They advertise several hundred dollars worth of merchandise and services on their front page. Let nobody claim they're doing it for the good of mankind.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:12 am 
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Meh. Think whatever you want. It's good stuff. They've got to make a living somehow. This guy gets no other income and he has a lot of stuff to support. And besides, you don't HAVE to buy them. You can have somebody copy tapes or DVDs. They're purposely non-copyrighted for that. He wants you to copy them and give them out x.x

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:34 am 
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Well, the last time I talked religion, IJ gave me what-for. For (mostly) good cause, too. I have been avoiding these pages because I get so nutzo after a while -- hey, whoda thunk it, me, a religious zealot!

Upsilon brings up a good point, though I do believe saying that DIdymus says that God hates atheists was overstating it.

I disagree with anyone believing that they are "the chosen people."

Which happens a lot, in all sorts of religions.

"Chosen People", the term implying that the unchosen people are either savable, if they conform to a certain mindset, or like chaff in the wind, expendable like so much dust.

I believe that all life is sacred. Especially human life.

The more life the better.

Does Creationism teach that? Um...I guess so.

I know evolution has that as it's core. Life finds ways to survive. Species defy extinction for eons. Coinciding with your given ecosystem. Adapting to your environment.

Heck yeah, man and woman.



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:36 am 
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God doesn't believe in atheists.

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I would disagree with that too.

God believes in atheists.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:44 am 
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x.x Think about what you just said. It's a joke.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:55 am 
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Oh! Jokes. Indeed.

/thinks about it


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:36 am 
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Haddi-Man wrote:
x.x Think about what you just said. It's a joke.


Haddi-Man, I rather assumed that what you were saying was the joke. If god doesn't believe in something, then it cannot exist. And clearly atheists do exist.

Maybe you meant to say "god doesn't believe in atheism", which is much more straight-forward.

"I quote John Lennon, 'I don't believe in The Beatles, I just believe in me.' Good point there. After all, he was the walrus."

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