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 Post subject: Sinning in the womb.
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:55 pm 
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I was browsing Fundies Say The Darndest Things!, and I came across this:

FSTDT wrote:
theSAVED wrote:
[about a girl being born with mental disabilities]

This girl is like a leper so what she needs to do is try and find god

if she really believes she can be healed from this state, she will be healed from this state

Most afflictions like this are caused by sins committed while still inside the womb. If she can repent for what she does god will embrace her and make her as human as you or me but if she chooses not to she'll always be like this

god tests every one of us [emphasis added]"


theSAVED, Penny Arcade [Comments (121)] [2007-Jan-14]


(Unfortunately, I could not find the post itself.)

While I find this to be hideously cruel and offensive (the post, not the fact that it was listed on FSTDT), it does bring up a few interesting questions:

-Can sins be committed while still in the womb?
-Can someone with a very serious mental disability (such as VERY severe retardation) repent?
-Can someone like that "change"?
-Do they count as "human"?

Personally, I believe that the concept of sinning before birth is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Someone who is severely retarded (I am assuming that the girl in question is) cannot really repent, at least not in a way that we can see. And no, she can't "change"--unless someone discovers how to "cure" her disability. As for being "human"...of COURSE she's human. Classifying someone like that as inhuman is just wrong. There is no reason whatsoever for her to be called subhuman, even if her cognitive abilities are practically nonexistant.

Your thoughts?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:11 pm 
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Rosalie response:
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can sins be committed while still in the womb?

Nobody can sin! Sinning doesn't exist, and neither does God!
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can someone with a very serious mental disability (such as VERY severe retardation) repent?

Nobody can repent! Repenting doesn't exist, and neither does God!
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can someone like that "change"?

No!
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Do they count as "human"?

No!

Objective response:
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can sins be committed while still in the womb?

Probably not. Depends on what you think is a sin.
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can someone with a very serious mental disability (such as VERY severe retardation) repent?

Depends on if the retardation is bad enough. They probably couldn't, though.
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Can someone like that "change"?

Not with current medical science.
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
-Do they count as "human"?

Personally, I don't think so.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:15 pm 
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First of all, that is the most absurd thing I've ever read. Illnesses and death may be ultimately attributed to our fallen nature, but this is no indication that any particular person bears the guilt of a particular sin. There is no direct connection. Perhaps the person who wrote that should read the account of Jesus healing man who had been born blind. The disciples asked, "So who's fault is it, his or his parents?" Jesus response was, "Neither" (John 9).

I do not know exactly how much mental capacity a person needs to have in order to "seek God" as this person says. But I do have a thought: it would seem to me that what's far more important is that God sought her. The Good Shepherd entered into this world in order to seek and to save lost, helpless sheep, and he did so by laying down his life for his sheep, and taking it up again.

Can she change? I don't think it is within her power to change herself at all.

As for the human part, absolutely! Unless the person who wrote that article is claiming that lower mental capacity means that a person is not human, in which case, I'd be interested in this person's opinion about abortion, as well as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and other debilitating diseases. Oh, wait. I forgot. People get those diseases by sinning. Silly me.

That girl is every bit as human as anyone else, and she deserves dignity on account of that, regardless of her mental capacity. Whoever wrote that article is biblically illiterate, and just plain dumb.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:19 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Whoever wrote that article is biblically illiterate, and just plain dumb.


Definitely dumber than the girl in question...

And Jello, what's your definition of "human"?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
And Jello, what's your definition of "human"?
Cyberskin.

Anyways, this is just a bunch of bull, probably put out by those jerks who we had a thread about last time. I seriously doubt anybody is really like that.Not a leper, a fundie like the one who made that post.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:56 pm 
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That's just stupid. You have no control over anything when you're in the womb. Also retardation just happens, just like being born without an arm, or being homosexual. Either that, or the parent drinks, smokes, etc. while pregnant. When you are born into the world you are without sin, but as life goes on, you are corrupted and sin like the mortal human that you are. You just have to pray and be truly sorry for your sins, and God will forgive you. Also, just try not to sin in the first place.

Yeah so... no... that is just plain DUMB. The person who wrote it originally is probably just prejudice, and wants God to back them up. But I REALLY don't think he will.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:04 pm 
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I would hesitate to say that we are born without sin. Psalm 51 and Romans 5:12 both indicate that at least the corruption of sin is already at work in us from the time we are conceived. My point was that one cannot draw a direct connection between illnesses, disabilities, and other physical disorders based on some presumed ACT of sin, which is exactly what the author of that article was saying.

I already cited a passage in John to show why that is not the case. Another passage, Job 1 and 2. Job was struck with some debilitating skin disorder, and yet God says that Job was a righteous man. While we are given a behind-the-scenes look at the reason (God was showing the devil the integrity of Job's faith), Job himself was never told why he was made to suffer. And pretty much is the case with us. Why do some children have birth defects? Why do some elderly people contract Alzheimer's? Why do some poeple (even non-smokers) get cancer, or Leukemia? Ultimately, we are never told why one person is sick or disabled and another is not.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
Psalm 51 and Romans 5:12 both indicate that at least the corruption of sin is already at work in us from the time we are conceived.


Yeah, sorry, the point I was trying to get across was that when we just come out of the womb, we have not sinned YET.

Also, why would God give disease as a punishment in the womb, when Jesus took pity on the Lepers, and healed them?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:09 pm 
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My parents said that I punched my brother in the womb...does that count?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:12 pm 
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I think that's more of a mis-aimed arm movement than a sin.

P.S. I didn't know you were a twin. Cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Sinning in the womb.
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:41 am 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Can sins be committed while still in the womb?
Can someone with a very serious mental disability (such as VERY severe retardation) repent?
Can someone like that "change"?
Do they count as "human"?


A person is slave to whom (s)he obeys... Neutral desire tempts, is entertained and becomes violating sin which leads to consequence, and finally culminates in death -- spiritual or physical or both. The first month after birth is called the "autistic phase" for good reason: a preborn -- who hasn't yet realized there are other's at all -- wouldn't yet be able to violate another's will; knowing something of The Other will ==seeing== is apparently a prerequisite of sinning. Not something a preborn can yet do.

As for a disabled person repenting: if (s)he believed with all their heart that Christ is the Son of God, then -- yes -- the repentence is not only acceptable, it's commanded. Repentence is a turning -- like you noted -- so there'd have to be some notion of going the wrong way to begin with. If there's no notion then -- no worries; safe is better than saved.

Each person is made in the image of God. And we Americans don't adequately teach the meaning of being set apart or hallowed/holy as we should. It's serious business. We are the last made -- a pinnacle; the only in His image; the only He died for. The fact that we suffer from the deteriorating genetic code (and products of it) is a consequence of the curse on us and this world, but it does not deprive us of humanity, likeness or love. When God speaks, He means it: He spoke at creation and made us like Him. He meant it.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:18 am 
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I'm reading the TOP 100 page, and quite frankly most of those quotes look fake. Like this one:

"One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it. [emphasis added]"

That sounds to me like some jerk going on christian websites and typing stupid things for a chuckle. Some of these are probably real, but I'd bet money that many of them are fakes.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:08 am 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:29 pm 
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Amorican wrote:
That sounds to me like some jerk going on christian websites and typing stupid things for a chuckle. Some of these are probably real, but I'd bet money that many of them are fakes.

That was my first thought.
"OH MY NOT GOD!! I GUNNA TIPE DIS AND MAKE PEEPLE THEENK KKKRISTSHUNS IS DUM!"

Then again, there are some under the banner of Christianity that are pretty "out there."

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