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| Pedophile Discrimination http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11389 |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Tue May 08, 2007 9:54 pm ] |
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I can't see any particular reason why lust can't be a symptom of a problem with the brain. Anyway, I think that these people need help, not scorn. Yes, to some degree, they have to help themselves... but some people need help just to get to the point where they can. That's not to say that there aren't pedophiles who are truly slimebags out there... I just don't think being a pedophile automatically makes you a slimebag. - Kef |
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| Author: | Beyond the Grave [ Tue May 08, 2007 9:54 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Moral relativism scares me to death. I can't think of a greater evil than pedophilia, and here we are having to debate whether it's even wrong or not. Well I can think of a few things that are worse, but that's for another discussion.
And there is no debate, pedophilia is wrong. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Tue May 08, 2007 9:58 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Moral relativism scares me to death. I can't think of a greater evil than pedophilia, and here we are having to debate whether it's even wrong or not.
You seem ill at ease with the very notion that people even question such things. But I question everything. I feel if there's something that I don't at least question, I'm not doing my job. - Kef |
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| Author: | HHFOV [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:01 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: MikeMcG is merely the product of exactly what the Politically Correct Police have been working at for years. I couldn't agree more. "Lawl, even though it's detrimental to society and causes violence and general discontent among the populace, it just depends on how ya look at it, yanno?"
There is no right and wrong. There is no good or evil. People are just people. Moral relativism scares me to death. I can't think of a greater evil than pedophilia, and here we are having to debate whether it's even wrong or not. Pedophilia is entirely different from homosexuality, in that homosexuality has been scientifically verified to be chemically attributed to one when one is in the womb (i.e., lack of testosterone, estrogen) Discrimination, by definition, refers to the hate or unjust treatment of another human because of circumstances he or she cannot control. Can you attribute any chemical imbalance to pedophilia? Can you show me studies of how such a desire is hormonally developed? No. Pedophilia is merely caused by the mental sickness and internal depravity of wanting to control another person, wanting to have complete dominance over another human weaker than you, in order to feel stronger yourself, similar to bullying. It is focused on children only because they are an aforementioned weakness, a link in the chain easily penetrable, unleashing a desire of such a hideous and monstrous psychological (not sexual) perversion. That is all. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:25 pm ] |
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Quote: I can't see any particular reason why lust can't be a symptom of a problem with the brain. Anyway, I think that these people need help, not scorn. Yes, to some degree, they have to help themselves... but some people need help just to get to the point where they can.
Kef has some very good points here. They do need help. But part of that help is the recognition that it is a problem, and in that regard, I'm picking up a lot of denial from Mike and a few others. It may not be a medical issue, but it most certainly is a behavioral issue, and cannot simply be ignored. What next, are we going to start saying, "Homicidal maniacs can't help that they are born that way, so we shouldn't condemn them"? While that may be true, it does not alleviate our responsibility as a society to protect our citizens, especially those who might become their victims. Part of that responsibility can certainly be applied through psychologically or socially treating those with the problem (and yes, I will continue to call it a problem). The other part will have to be measures to prevent someone from harming others, and this by means of law enforcement. It is a clear case in which, in order to protect the rights of some, the rights of others will likely be trampled underfoot. It is sad that this is the way humanity is, and we must deal with it. But in the balance of things, it would seem to me that protecting the rights of the potential victims outweighs the need to protect the rights of those with the potential to prey upon them. So what does this mean? If a man walks into my office and says, "Pastor Tom, I find myself sometimes looking at little girls, and having feelings." My response would be to protect that man; that kind of courage is awesome, and I'd feel a powerful responsibility to help him as best I could (although I'd probably refer him to professional counselors). But in the same session, I'd do two things: (1) I'd assess if there is any immediate threat of him engaging in predatory behavior, and if so, I'd have both a legal and conscientious responsibility to report it; and (2) I'd do my best to compassionately and gracefully instruct him in his responsibility to rein in his lustful nature. And most importantly, I'd share with him the forgiveness AND THE HELP that is available through our Lord Jesus Christ. I might even lead him through a confessional rite, offering him the forgiveness of Jesus from our Lord's own mouth. I'd also put him in touch with a professional counselor. But I would do everything within my power to protect both his dignity and the rights of those who might - if he continues having problems and starts to falter - become his victims. |
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| Author: | MikeMcG [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:35 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: MikeMcG is merely the product of exactly what the Politically Correct Police have been working at for years.
There is no right and wrong. There is no good or evil. People are just people. Moral relativism scares me to death. I can't think of a greater evil than pedophilia, and here we are having to debate whether it's even wrong or not. I don't see what's so bad about not wanting someone to suffer for being the way they are made. If they don't cause harm to others, what's the problem? EDIT: Don't misquote me out of context again. That was from a thread discussing death, not sex. - Didymus. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:41 pm ] |
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But that's just the point, here, Mike. IF they don't cause harm. The consensus of the thread is that pedophilia behavior does cause harm and most certainly should not be allowed. On the other hand, if someone has those feelings and is committed to not acting on them, then that is a different story. But in that, he should be willing to use every resource available to combat the problem. Attending Sexaholics Anonymous might help, or seeking the guidance of a counselor or pastor, trained professionals who are under obligation to protect them as long as they do not pose a threat to others. In the process, they might just find that they can in fact develop healthy sexual attitudes. Mike, totally misquoting me from a discussion about death, wrote: You don't have to feel guilty about your feelings. They are what they are, and that's it.
Regarding attraction, perhaps it is true that one cannot control how they feel initially, but I would contend that it's what they do with those feelings that really matters. If a man finds himself attracted to a 10-year old girl, he has a choice: he can continue to check her out, or he can look away. What he does in that moment might very well be the deciding factor in how the rest of his life plays out. |
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| Author: | MikeMcG [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:56 pm ] |
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I agree that sex with a minor is a terrible thing, but the definition of a pedophile is not someone who engages in sex with minors, its someone who's sexually attracted to minors. The topic isn't about sex with minors, it's discrimination against those who are attracted to minors. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue May 08, 2007 10:58 pm ] |
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And as I have already stated numerous times, the root problem is one of lust. |
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| Author: | MikeMcG [ Tue May 08, 2007 11:01 pm ] |
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Lust wouldn't be the right word to use. Pedophiles are normal people, they can keep their eyes off someone if it's inappropriate. Like I'm pretty sure I've said before, there is no problem if the person isn't a sexual deviant. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Tue May 08, 2007 11:14 pm ] |
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Sexual attraction is probably the most powerful instinct we have. You really think someone can have that kind of attraction to young girls or boys his entire life and never act on it? |
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| Author: | putitinyourshoe [ Tue May 08, 2007 11:24 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Sexual attraction is probably the most powerful instinct we have. You really think someone can have that kind of attraction to young girls or boys his entire life and never act on it?
can a celibate clergy member (regardless of orientation) refrain from acting on whatever sexual attractions they might have FOREVER?! |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Tue May 08, 2007 11:40 pm ] |
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Beyond the Grave wrote: And there is no debate, pedophilia is wrong. But saying that pedophilia is wrong is just like saying that homosexuality is wrong.
Tell me, why is it in some countries it is morally wrong to want to have sexual relations with a child, but in other societies it is fine. Is one culture right, and another wrong? Now, before I am accused by anyone, I no not support or condone the acts that pedophiles commit. Many pedophiles were abused as children, and are attracted to children that are the same age as when they were abused. It's a vicious cycle. But what can we do? Locking them up and throwing away the key is not a valid punishment. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:05 am ] |
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putitinyourshoe wrote: lahimatoa wrote: Sexual attraction is probably the most powerful instinct we have. You really think someone can have that kind of attraction to young girls or boys his entire life and never act on it? can a celibate clergy member (regardless of orientation) refrain from acting on whatever sexual attractions they might have FOREVER?! If you were to ask me, i don't intend to. My plan is to marry eventually. Now, in the mean time, I will wait. That is my responsibility, and my commitment. Now I have no doubt that it is possible for someone to remain celibate their whole life. History abounds with such men and women. But for the man or woman of God, it is a life of prayer and repentance. The struggle is there, and it is real, but we are not alone. We have each other, and most importantly, we have God on our side. Quote: But saying that pedophilia is wrong is just like saying that homosexuality is wrong. Have you been asleep and not paying attention to the rest of the thread, Ramrod? Pedophilia is a type of lust that can only be engaged through predatory and exploitive measures. Do you not believe that sexual exploitation of children is wrong? And if it is not to be engaged - i.e., to be suppressed - then upon what basis are we to say it should be suppressed? Quote: Tell me, why is it in some countries it is morally wrong to want to have sexual relations with a child, but in other societies it is fine. Is one culture right, and another wrong? Why not? Why can't we say that a culture is wrong in something? We do it all the time anyway. For example, when we say that Soviet China is wrong for massacring its people, or the Nazis for slaughtering Jews, Christians, and other peoples, or Al-Qaeda for attacking the World Trade Center. What is it about this issue that makes it inappropriate for us to critique another culture? It is true that other cultures in history have permitted children to get married at what we could consider a very young age - mid-teens usually. But that's just it: that's marriage, a committed relationship, not a predatory situation. And those cultures tend to be agrarian or hunter-gatherer societies anyway, in which being a part of a family was very important to their own personal welfare and survival of the tribe or village. They tend to be primarily familial relationships. But I bet if the village talk were to address the one village elder who tended to let his eye wonder over all the young girls too young to marry, there would be some disdain there I bet. Quote: Locking them up and throwing away the key is not a valid punishment.
Go back and read my posts. Did I ever once suggest that we ought to lock up anyone who was not a convicted sex offender? No I did not. But I do advocate help, support, and treatment for those who exhibit pedophilia. |
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| Author: | MikeMcG [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:12 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: Have you been asleep and not paying attention to the rest of the thread, Ramrod? Pedophilia is a type of lust that can only be engaged through predatory and exploitive measures. Do you not believe that sexual exploitation of children is wrong? And if it is not to be engaged - i.e., to be suppressed - then upon what basis are we to say it should be suppressed?
Please stop mixing up molestation and pedophilia. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:15 am ] |
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I'm not confusing the two at all. Look carefully at the very words you highlighted. Pedophilia is the lust, and molestation (along with pornography) are the ways in which that lust is carried out. You will further note, later in the very same paragraph you quoted, that I discussed the issue of that lust being suppressed. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:16 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: Quote: But saying that pedophilia is wrong is just like saying that homosexuality is wrong. Have you been asleep and not paying attention to the rest of the thread, Ramrod? Pedophilia is a type of lust that can only be engaged through predatory and exploitive measures. Do you not believe that sexual exploitation of children is wrong? And if it is not to be engaged - i.e., to be suppressed - then upon what basis are we to say it should be suppressed? Pedophilia is not simply just lust. It is a sexual orientation, just as heterosexuality is. Saying that it is lust would be saying the same thing about heterosexuality. Dids, I have learned about this. I am a mandated New York State child abuse Reporter. I had to take a course about this. It is a difficult and sensitive subject to discuss. But what treatments are out there besides medication that suppresses hormones? Saying that you can cure someone of pedophilia is like saying you can cure someone of being Gay. It's ludicrous. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:22 am ] |
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In that case, Ramrod, do you mind if I ask you to start citing some sources for me to support what you are saying? Because it seems that my own studies are not quite lining up with yours for some reason. Quote: Pedophilia is not simply just lust. It is a sexual orientation, just as heterosexuality is. Saying that it is lust would be saying the same thing about heterosexuality.
In any event, even if a person feels oriented that way, he has the same responsibility as I do not to allow those feelings to rule his life. I.e., he has to do exactly as I've been saying all along: develop a healthy attitude toward both sex and toward children. The alternative is to engage in illegal predatory and exploitive behavior. That is the reality. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:41 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: In that case, Ramrod, do you mind if I ask you to start citing some sources for me to support what you are saying? Because it seems that my own studies are not quite lining up with yours for some reason. My studies have come from my teacher. A Counselor at the county detention center, a former head of a school for mentally disturbed children, and a former head of the county police academy.
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:50 am ] |
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Do you remember me telling you that I did a study of behavioral addiction recovery while in Clinical Pastoral Education? I worked with a professional counselor who specialized in sexual addiction recovery. So if we're going to cite credentials, I'd say mine are adequate. You say pedophilia cannot be cured. Neither can most physical or behavioral addictions. You've probably heard, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," and "There's no such thing as a former addict, only recovering ones." So if we're talking about "cure" in that sense, I would agree. However, if you're using that as a means of contesting that it can and should be treated, or that the person afflicted with it cannot find some measure of recovery, then I disagree. But all of that is academic. The real issue is still this: the person with pedophilia tendencies has these two options. Either they can adjust and learn to overcome those tendencies, or they can act them out. I feel that our responsibility is both to encourage and support them in recovery, but failing that, to protect potential victims from exploitation. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 12:57 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: The real issue is still this: the person with pedophilia tendencies has these two options. Either they can adjust and learn to overcome those tendencies, or they can act them out. I feel that our responsibility is both to encourage and support them in recovery, but failing that, to protect potential victims from exploitation. I completely agree with you. And that is what we are trying to do. But unfortunately, politics gets involved. People want revenge, not treatment. They see rehabilitation as being soft and weak.
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:19 am ] |
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Quote: can a celibate clergy member (regardless of orientation) refrain from acting on whatever sexual attractions they might have FOREVER?!
No, I don't believe they can. You must think I'm Catholic. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:24 am ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Quote: can a celibate clergy member (regardless of orientation) refrain from acting on whatever sexual attractions they might have FOREVER?! No, I don't believe they can. You must think I'm Catholic. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:27 am ] |
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ramrod, that doesn't even deserve a response. Why are you jumping down my throat today? |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:29 am ] |
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Dude, he didn't jump down your throat. He responded to your post. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:32 am ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: ramrod, that doesn't even deserve a response. Why are you jumping down my throat today? Lahi, you made a post. I responded to it. What's the problem?
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:34 am ] |
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ramrod wrote: God help us all, where does Lahi's madness end? ramrod wrote: Lahi, unfortunately for you, many Catholic priests are indeed celibate for their entire lives. Not all of them are sinners and child molesters.
Seems rather hostile to me. If I'm just paranoid, then I'll admit it. Stop deciding what I mean in my posts, rammy. There are more ways to give in to sexual impulses than fornicating or molesting children. I never inferred that all Catholic priests are pedophiles. And stop acting like I would be thrilled if they were. |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:50 am ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Stop deciding what I mean in my posts, rammy. I'm only doing to you what you do to other people. You think I'm being rude and obnoxious? Well, now you know what others feel about you at times.
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:59 am ] |
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ramrod wrote: I know what you are but what am I?
Well done. I can see why they made you a mod. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 3:05 am ] |
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Okay, that's enough. |
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