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| Pedophile Discrimination http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11389 |
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| Author: | ramrod [ Wed May 09, 2007 5:10 am ] |
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OK, I've decided to unlock this thread. I hope that we all, myself included, can carry on with this debate with cool heads. |
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| Author: | DukeNuke [ Wed May 09, 2007 1:09 pm ] |
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I think that any sexuality should be ok. It's not like you can decide what to be attracted to, anyway. But I also think that you must never, no matter what preferences you have, hurt anyone (...against their will, I suppose, since some like pain). So for pedophiles, I'd say it's ok to like children, but you'll have to stick with drawn and/or computer animated pornography and such things that do not hurt anyone. |
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| Author: | putitinyourshoe [ Wed May 09, 2007 1:14 pm ] |
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i'm beyond done with caring about what this thread turned into but i'd simply like to clarify my post about sexual celibacy, and i'm glad you responded in the way that you did, Didy. you were pretty close to getting my point. My implied point was that yes, a strong person who takes themselves seriously can in fact remain celibate forever. and i didn't think you were catholic, lahi, i was making about about human beings and celibacy. that point is that a strong willed human will remain celibate if necessary, even if it is a struggle, and work hard at being a good person despite urges they know they don't even want. but you can't just think it away, it's a struggle for everyone: clergy members who are celibate (even if for a time, not indefinitely), closeted/repressed homosexuals, and pedophiles. |
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| Author: | PianoManGidley [ Wed May 09, 2007 2:25 pm ] |
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Didymus wrote: What next, are we going to start saying, "Homicidal maniacs can't help that they are born that way, so we shouldn't condemn them"? While that may be true, it does not alleviate our responsibility as a society to protect our citizens, especially those who might become their victims.
It might be me, but this and the summation of your other posts, Dids, make it sound as if you feel that pedophiles think about sex with children 24/7. That would be as dangerously prejudice as suggesting that all gay people think about 24/7 is sex, or that all people with a different hair color from yours think about 24/7 is hair color. Don't make the mistake of attributing the behaviours presented in news stories of child rapists to every single person who has ever felt a sexual urge towards a child. After all, all of us on the side of "sexual deviancy" don't call all heterosexual people rapists simply because there've been a few in the news before. And I apologize if I'm reading your posts wrong. As for the evidence of a slippery-slope argument discussed before...I feel that it is a necessity of our continued evolution as enlightened beings to travel into all territories of questions, even the ones that we as a society previously deemed off-limits. If you suppress one line of debate, one line of thinking, simply because it's "taboo," then what do you limit next? I feel that since we have evidence that this particular slippery-slope is NOT a fallacy here, then we can assume it could go both ways. And remember--opening up a debate against a previously established ideal doesn't necessarily mean that the ideal will change or subvert to a contradicting ideal. It simply means that we're addressing the issue and laying out WHY it is we feel the way we do. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 5:31 pm ] |
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What I'm saying is that we cannot allow the fact that this is a tendency within certain people to be an excuse not to fulfill our obligations to protect victims. As has already been stated - and demonstrated - in this thread, the pedophile is confronted with a choice: either to engage their desires or to suppress them. Engaging them leads to exploitive behavior. But if he chooses to suppress them, he's going to need support in doing so. In stating this, I was not arguing that they are constantly under the influence of their desires, any more than I am as a heterosexual. But the advantage that I have is that, even while I do suppress my attractions, I can take comfort knowing that perhaps one day I can find someone who is going to fulfill that part of my life. And no, I am not speaking strictly on a sexual level here. But the pedophile who chooses to resist his temptations must accept the reality that this desire cannot be rightly fulfilled. Despite the popular theories of today, I'm still not convinced that sexual orientation is hard-wired into us. Granted, genetics and other medical details may influence, but there are so many factors of our personality that are brought about by both physiology and our environment. I do not believe we are puppets of our genes. To argue such is essentially to say that pedophiles MUST ultimately engage in exploitive behavior, in which case we have one of two responses to make: (1) to completely eliminate them from our society, or (2) to simply let them do what they want, despite the ways they might harm others. This thread is not about homosexuality, and I do not intend to let this conversation go that way. As has been stated numerous times on this thread already, the chief difference between a homosexual and a pedophile is that the pedophile can only engage in sexual behavior by exploitive means, such as child porn or molestation, whereas, under the eyes of the law, homosexuality is practiced between consenting adults. My point was this: as our society continues to gorge itself on its sexual appetites, there will become fewer and fewer barriers that people are unwilling to cross. The problem is that now, even as those barriers continue to be broken down, no one is willing anymore to say, "That's enough. No further." Take pornography, for example. The only reason the stuff exists is to feed lust. But if you point this out to people, they start ranting about the First Amendment. We spoke of advertising earlier, and how advertisers feed our sexual appetites in order to sell us stuff we don't really need. My point, going off of what Lahi was saying, is this: maybe it's time that we as a society started taking some responsibility. Instead of either blaming or condoning pedophilia, maybe it's high time we took a look at ourselves and asked, "In what ways are we part of the problem, and in what ways can we help it?" Yes, we human beings are sexual creatures, and yes, to some degree we are hard-wired to be. But there have been times in our history when we have been much more responsible about sexuality. And unless we're going to say that the genetic code itself is changing us back into unthinking beasts, then perhaps we should start reclaiming that responsibility. And the question is still before you: what would you do if you were confronted with pedophilia? What if someone came to you and said, "I find myself sexually attracted to children"? I answered that question myself above. I now pose it to you. |
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| Author: | Mike D [ Wed May 09, 2007 7:06 pm ] |
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I have a couple of things I'd like to mention about this issue. Firstly, according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is the standard used by mental health professionals in this country, pedophilia is not an orientation. It is a paraphilia, especially as its expression fulfills the criteria of violation of consent. We're more in the realm of psychopathology than sexuality here. (Bear in mind that paraphilias are, by definition, total; if you have a paraphilia you can only achieve sexual gratification via the specific object of your desires, and the situation must either result in significant distress for you or it must require illegal behavior to be fulfilled. Therefore, masochism, say, is only a paraphilia if it's mucking up your life somehow, but pedophilia, frotteurism, etc. are always paraphilias.) Secondly, the majority of people who commit child sexual abuse are not pedophiles, but situational offenders; people with no prior history of pedophilia. Studies thusfar have indicated that less than 10% of child sexual abuse offenders meet the criteria for pedophilia. True pedophiles are quite rare; it's the "normal" people we need to be watching out for. The majority of offenders knew the child prior to any incident, and a large percentage are related to the victim. My own feeling is that pedophiles should not be discriminated against beyond what the law requires if they commit an offense. If you're a parent it's common sense to warn your children about the various dangers of the world they live in, including sexual abusers. Since abuse so often comes from people you wouldn't necessarily expect it to there seems little reason to focus on one specific group of potential offenders. Mike |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 7:43 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Only a matter of time before pedophilia gains the same level of social acceptance that homosexuality is gunning for. God help us all. Where does it end? ...That is offensive on so many levels. Didymus wrote: As far as discrimination goes: I am not a pedophile, but I have been accused of it on occasion, without cause I might add. Why? Because I happen to be single and I happen to be a clergyman. This combination in some people's minds automatically makes me a pedophile.
Get your own freaking minds out of the gutter, people!Heck, people tell ME that about MYRRH all the time. Apparently everyone on the Intarwebs wants to rape children. Thank God MY parents aren't overly suspicious like that! ^^
As for pedophilia, yes, it is a problem. A serious problem. It is a disorder, just as, say, schizophrenia or clinical depression is a disorder, and pedophiles genuinely need help. And I'm just guessing here, but my guess is that not all pedophiles are active pedophiles. I'd venture to say that most aren't. But those who are definitely need to be punished. They are, as people here have pointed out, scarring their victims for life. As for the orientation thing? No. Definitely not. A (normal, of course) homosexual is not hurting anybody because of their sexual orientation; a pedophile is. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:30 pm ] |
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Dear Ship, I can only assume you read that post and then didn't bother to read the rest of what I've said in this thread. Therefore, calm down and stop looking to to be offended so easily. Love, lahimatoa |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:35 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Dear Ship,
I can only assume you read that post and then didn't bother to read the rest of what I've said in this thread. Therefore, calm down and stop looking to to be offended so easily. Love, lahimatoa I've read everything you've said in this thread, actually. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:38 pm ] |
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In that case, I retract my last post. Please feel free to explain what about my position in this thread is so offensive to you. |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:42 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: In that case, I retract my last post.
Please feel free to explain what about my position in this thread is so offensive to you. Well, a lot of what you say--not just in this thread, either--is pretty offensive, to be honest. That one quote, though, is particularly offensive. I mean, equating homosexuals to pedophiles is just...wrong. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:47 pm ] |
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So... you're lying then. |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:49 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: So... you're lying then.
Okay, you are COMPLETELY misinterpreting what I said. I READ your other posts, but that post in particular offended me. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:49 pm ] |
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Where in the world do you get that from? |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:50 pm ] |
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lahi wrote: I concur wholeheartedly. I do not and never have equated homosexuality with pedophilia.
You read that and still think I equate the two? |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:53 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: lahi wrote: I concur wholeheartedly. I do not and never have equated homosexuality with pedophilia. I don't recall you ever saying that. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 8:56 pm ] |
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Hence, you lied. Quote: I've read everything you've said in this thread, actually.
That quote of mine is on page 1 of this thread. |
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| Author: | Shippinator Mandy [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:00 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Hence, you lied.
Quote: I've read everything you've said in this thread, actually. That quote of mine is on page 1 of this thread. Okay, looking back, I see what you said. That does not your previous post any less offensive. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:01 pm ] |
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That's enough, Lahi. The girl said she didn't recall that statement, and so there's no need for you to accuse her like that. It would have been entirely sufficient for you to remind her of what you said, instead of resorting to accusation. This is uncalled for. |
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| Author: | Ju Ju Master [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:03 pm ] |
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No on es goign to remember everything that's been said in this thread. There's already a lot here, and it's been building up pretty quickly. I don't think Laahi was comparing homosexuality to pedophilia in that post - you're right, they're completely different. I just think he's saying that, due to the homosexual rights movements and such, people may be less hard on pedophiles and their actions, since it may seem just like another orientation. As for my thoughts on the subject, my opinion is pretty simple. Attraction to children (or anyone, for that matter) is fine, it doesn't hurt anyone. Actting on those urges is not. That seems pretty logical to me. EDIT: Simulpost (plus I added those last couple of lines) |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:03 pm ] |
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Quote: Okay, looking back, I see what you said. That does not your previous post any less offensive. Why not? Quote: Attraction to children (or anyone, for that matter) is fine, it doesn't hurt anyone. Actting on those urges is not. That seems pretty logical to me.
As I stated earlier, I believe it is nearly impossible to have a sexual attraction of any kind and not act on it ever in your entire life. At least not without psychological help. To let someone think that it's fine for them to be turned on by 11-year old girls is dangerous. Anyone with that mindset needs to get help. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:26 pm ] |
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Quote: I don't think Laahi was comparing homosexuality to pedophilia in that post - you're right, they're completely different. I just think he's saying that, due to the homosexual rights movements and such, people may be less hard on pedophiles and their actions, since it may seem just like another orientation.
That seems to be part of the problem here. That's exactly what people are starting to claim, that pedophilia is just another orientation. That claim has been made several times right here in this thread. But I think too much time and effort has been spent on us trying to clarify whether it is to be accepted as a legitimate orientation or not. We have already clearly stated that, whether it is or not, pedophile behavior is not acceptable since it will involve exploitation of children. |
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| Author: | Ju Ju Master [ Wed May 09, 2007 9:51 pm ] |
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Didymus wrote: That seems to be part of the problem here. That's exactly what people are starting to claim, that pedophilia is just another orientation. That claim has been made several times right here in this thread. And if it weren't for Mike's post above, I would still think it is. And that's not a problem. Didymus wrote: But I think too much time and effort has been spent on us trying to clarify whether it is to be accepted as a legitimate orientation or not. We have already clearly stated that, whether it is or not, pedophile behavior is not acceptable since it will involve exploitation of children.
If they are indugled. But if they aren't, then there's no problem Not all pedophiles are going to go out a rape a child. People can control themselves. Not all of them can, but it's unfair to group all pedophiles - rapists or not - together. There have been heterosexual rapists, but we don't group all heterosexual people as if they are. It's just another stereotype. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:14 pm ] |
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Repost since apparently Ju Ju missed this: As I stated earlier, I believe it is nearly impossible to have a sexual attraction of any kind and not act on it ever in your entire life. At least not without psychological help. To let someone think that it's fine for them to be turned on by 11-year old girls is dangerous. Anyone with that mindset needs to get help. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:21 pm ] |
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While I do not entirely agree that every person will eventually act on some sexual impulse, I do believe Lahi is correct on this point: (1) it is neither normal nor healthy to view children as sex objects, and (2) whether or not it is to be labeled a sexual orientation, we should not simply accept every sexual impulse or inclination as acceptable. Just because a few people decide that it should be labeled an orientation rather than a disorder does not relieve us of the responsibility to address it as a problem. |
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| Author: | Ju Ju Master [ Wed May 09, 2007 10:37 pm ] |
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lahimatoa wrote: Repost since apparently Ju Ju missed this:
As I stated earlier, I believe it is nearly impossible to have a sexual attraction of any kind and not act on it ever in your entire life. At least not without psychological help. To let someone think that it's fine for them to be turned on by 11-year old girls is dangerous. Anyone with that mindset needs to get help. I didn't miss it, I just disagree with it. I believe some people are strong willed enough not to act on their sexual insrtincts. You do have a point, though. I suppose simply the attraction can be dangerous. One thing can lead to another - if it's ok for someone to be attracted by a child, it may gradually seem ok for them to rape a child. However, any sexual thoughts can lead to this conclusion, regardless of whom they are directed to. I'll have to think a bit more about this. |
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| Author: | PianoManGidley [ Thu May 10, 2007 12:21 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: My point was this: as our society continues to gorge itself on its sexual appetites, there will become fewer and fewer barriers that people are unwilling to cross. The problem is that now, even as those barriers continue to be broken down, no one is willing anymore to say, "That's enough. No further." Take pornography, for example. The only reason the stuff exists is to feed lust. But if you point this out to people, they start ranting about the First Amendment. We spoke of advertising earlier, and how advertisers feed our sexual appetites in order to sell us stuff we don't really need. My point, going off of what Lahi was saying, is this: maybe it's time that we as a society started taking some responsibility. Instead of either blaming or condoning pedophilia, maybe it's high time we took a look at ourselves and asked, "In what ways are we part of the problem, and in what ways can we help it?"
I suppose to this, we should address why lust in and of itself is a bad thing. Why is porn immoral? If lust is not restrained, does it lead to people viewing others as merely objects to satisfy their own sexual desires? Does lust, if not reigned in, make people more greedy, and thereby prone to treat others less as human beings and more as objects? The answer may seem like an obvious yes, but I would challenge the notion that every single person who has ever masturbated to porn now sees the subject of that porn (and all representatives akin to said subject) as being mere sexual objects. Once again, I feel like this is another issue that can't just be reduced to something as black and white as our ordered minds would like. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu May 10, 2007 12:27 am ] |
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Quote: I suppose to this, we should address why lust in and of itself is a bad thing. Why is porn immoral? If lust is not restrained, does it lead to people viewing others as merely objects to satisfy their own sexual desires? Does lust, if not reigned in, make people more greedy, and thereby prone to treat others less as human beings and more as objects?
Have you ever studied up on sexual addiction, Pianoman? I have, as part of my clinical pastoral internship. And my answer to that question, based on my own studies and research, is a resounding, "Yes." |
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| Author: | Mike D [ Thu May 10, 2007 11:58 am ] |
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Discussing whether lust is inherently wrong or whether pedophiles can control themselves is purely academic. Presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of all jurisprudence in this country, and it is so for a very good reason*. There's nothing we can do directly about potential child sexual abusers before they break the law. We cannot target even admitted pedophiles until they step over the line (and even if we could they're such a small percentage of total offenders that it would hardly make a dent in the overall problem). With this in mind the best course of action is prevention via the education and protection of children. It's an uncomfortable truth, but since most of these offenses are committed by acquaintances and relatives you have to make sure nobody is in your blind spot. It's less likely to be a boogeyman in a long coat at the edge of the playground than it is to be your neighbor, your football buddy, or even a sibling. A good starting link for further info is Childhelp, a help and advocacy organization against all forms of child abuse. Helpguide.org also has an informative page on child abuse issues. Mike * If you lift presumption of innocence for one crime you invalidate it for all crimes. The end result of this is totalitarianism, where the state arrests whoever it wants whenever it wants and for any reason it wants (while government officials remain effectively above the law). Although child sexual abuse is a stomach-churningly heinous crime, its perpetrators must be afforded the same protections under law as everyone else. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Fri May 11, 2007 12:53 am ] |
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Quote: This is a good example of the "slippery slope" fallacy.
The fact that we have to debate the social acceptability of pedophilia in this thread perfectly illustrates how I'm right. You can cry "Fallacy! Fallacy!" all you want, but you can't ignore the facts. |
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