Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Scenario 1:

A 17-year-old girl is in love with a 40-year-old man. She wants him in "That Way", in both the sexual and non-sexual senses. The man is initially uninterested: he considers her a good friend, but nothing more. First he fails to notice her advances. Then he notices but ignores them. They talk about it and both make their feelings clear. She understands and doesn't push the matter beyond occasional flirtatious comments. As things continue in a similar fashion, the man gradually comes to realize that he does love her too.

What do you think are the proper boundaries of this relationship? Does the man have a responsibility not to take it further, and if so, why? (For the purpose of this discussion, disregard statutory rape laws and the like.) It's important to note that the girl is initiating every action in this scenario.

Please do not read further until you have completely made up your mind about scenario 1. I don't want your thoughts on scenario 2 to influence your thoughts about scenario 1. You can even go ahead and prepare your response to scenario 1. Type it up and everything if you want. I'll still be here waiting when you return.


OK, ready?


Scenario 2:

Scenario 2 is the same as scenario 1, but with more context. This scenario takes place on another world in a time period that mostly corresponds to our ancient times, though with many differences (women are treated as equals, there is no slavery, etc.). Where the girl is from, and where they both live, there are no social norms that forbid the relationship. But the man comes from a different society where there were indeed norms like our own. Naturally, the man is uncomfortable with the relationship and with his own feelings, but he can't help but feel that he's found true love.

The girl is a skilled soldier who commands an elite company of soldiers. She has killed other soldiers in combat, executed criminals, killed a superior commander who severely abused her (part self-defense, part rage), and even been forced against her will to fight to the death with her own brother (but the fight was cancelled just before the end and both survived). Not long after she turned 17, her brother was tortured and killed after a failed spy mission. Her arguments to him are: 1) she doesn't have a bit of the innocence of childhood left in her, so she might as well be an adult anyway, and 2) does it make any sense that she can kill, but not make love?

Does your opinion change from your opinion in scenario 1, and if so, how and why?

- Kef

P.S.: I don't want this merged into the pedophilia thread. I think this is a different thing with much scope for discussion unrelated to the stuff in that thread.

_________________
404 sig not found

Response to Scenario 1:
OK, so ignoring any laws about it... In a completely possible cultural situation in which people were brought up to make responsible decisions earlier, I would find no problem with this situation. The problem with this in our society is that teens are NOT for the most part able to handle these situations because they're brought up today treated as kids until they're done with school. Even after school it takes a couple years to realize how the world actually works because many of them have never had to take care of themselves or even engage the world without the filter of media or extremely organized activity. Sex is an undeniable part of humanity, yes, fun, yes, but it's also serious business that can have serious consequences on several levels. It's not like eating or taking a leak; you shouldn't be doing it if you don't have maturity and adult responsibility. Anyway, yeah, like I said, if there's no law against it, and she's in a cultural context that doesn't isolate the youth from developing a realistic view of the world and therefore cultivates maturity, then OK.

Response to Scenario 2:
Oh, OK, that's pretty much exactly what I said! ...in a weird, violent, sci-fi way If the dude can see from her actions and the cultural context that she's an adult and there are no laws against it, then fine.

_________________
ATTN: LOWER BOARD USERS HAVE MOVED TO ANOTHER FORUM. COME JOIN THE FUN!

I'm going to partially ignore the part about statutory rape laws. My understanding of those laws - bear in mind, I haven't done detailed studies of them - is that if the couple are married, the age distinction is ignored.

I personally do not feel it is immoral for two people to be attracted to each other, even if there is a drastic age difference. But how they approach that attraction makes all the difference. Obviously, given the boundaries you set early in the scenario, we are not talking about a dirty old man and some random garden tool, but people who know each other and care about each other on a deeper level. What's more, from your description, both seem to have a healthy and mature attitude about such a relationship, even if the man is hesitant (most likely because he WANTS it to be a responsible relationship).

As a matter of fact, my grandfather was significantly older than my grandmother, by about 18 years or so. Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, a German theologian whom I greatly admired, was engaged to a woman 20 years younger than him, and would have married her had the Nazis not arrested and murdered him. Furthermore, I think about my own situation, as an unmarried clergyman whose primary prospect for marriage are most likely the students at Delta State, most of whom are at least 12 years younger than me. I once had a parishioner who told me that if I did marry someone significantly younger than me, she would lose some respect for me, but my response was, "How exactly does the age difference in and of itself make such a relationship immoral? If she's a devout woman, and she's right for me, I personally don't see where the age difference would be anyone's business."

I do not feel this scenario directly applies to the subject of pedophilia, since - well, let's just be honest here - girls in their mid to late teens are pretty much physically developed, and (bear in mind, I'm only speaking truthfully here, and am not expressing any feelings of my own), sometimes it's not so easy to tell the difference between a teenager and a legal adult. But as it relates to pediphilia - that is, attraction to someone who is distinctly not physically mature - it's not the same thing. Nevertheless, partly because of cultural perceptions, but mostly because I want someone who is mature mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, I do set my boundary at 21. I know, legal drinking age. Other than that, it's a rather arbitrary number. But I figure that if in the eyes of the law she is a full legal adult, then she ought to be in anyone else's eyes as well.

So, having expressed my opinion of the first scenario, I have to conclude that, in the second scenario, we are still talking about people who by the standards of their own culture are mature enough to make those kinds of choices. Red Sonja can decide for herself very well whether or not she intends to enter a relationship, and if so, with whom.

_________________

And even if they were an issue, it might be best, considering the mutual responsibility they both feel, if they just kept it on a romantic level until she were 18.

Not only that, but I think in most cases, if the parents don't have a problem with it, it is essentially a non-issue.

_________________

Scenario 1: I would tell the man that just to make sure people don't accuse you of funny-business, wait until she's 18. It's not that far away. Then go for it, but then be prepared for many dirty looks from 40 year old women, and high-fives from 40 year old men. Also be aware that the 17 year old is going to be a very different person in 5 or 10 years, and change much more than the 40 year old will in the same time span. Don't count on it lasting.

Scenario 2: Go for it and don't look back.

_________________
Listen to the Black Crowes.