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Look what I found in my random Google searches!: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020603/dreier

So basically American patriotism is driven by collectivism and is totally at odds with individualism. I personally think collectivism is much more prone to authoritarianism.

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An amazing article. It's sad how few Americans really know and understand their own history. I regrettably admit to be among them, but at least my closest and dearest friend happens to be a walking encyclopedia of American History (particularly in regard to the Civil War).

I feel a bitter taste in my mouth whenever someone talks of patriotism for America, because it has become to me what that article essentially claims it has become: blind, mindless conformity and obedience, combined with hate, prejudice, xenophobia, and extreme arrogance. I find myself wondering why I should ever pledge my own allegiance to a nation that still treats me as a second-class citizen, where the murder of my comrades continue to be swept under the rug, with the exception of very few cases (such as Matthew Shepard). Texas alone has a reported average of 300 murders or violent assaults on GLBT people each year, and 1 out of ever 6 hate crimes in this nation are based on the victim's sexual orientation. The Equal Opportunity Employment Act still says nothing about protecting one from discrimination based on sexual orientation. And yet this country still does nothing to right these blatant wrongs. And yet they still expect me to be patriotic, to follow orders without question.

I may have many freedoms, but until I can be treated as a true equal, I will never give my total allegiance. Not yet.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I know. It's really messed up how blindly obedient and uninformed most Americans are. I mean the school system we have is directly derived from post-WWI Germany. Most people don't know where things come from. It's not so much the spirit of the songs, etc but the fact people don't have a clue of where anything we have originated.

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PMG, I'm offended that you feel disloyal to the United States because it's not the utopia you wish it were.

Is there another country on earth you could pledge your allegiance to? If not, isn't it your responsibility to love your country and work your butt of to change the things you don't like about it?

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I think what he's saying isn't that he's "disloyal" as much that he isn't 100% behind the country. I don't believe you have to give 100%. After all, you gotta live somewhere... what if there is no country you'd give 100% to? I wouldn't want to give 100% to America either -- not right now, at least -- but that doesn't mean I don't love America. I just think loving America doesn't necessarily mean complete, unconditional, blind love, y'know?

- Kef

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That is a good point, and one I have at times had to make to people myself. There are things I love about this country, but also things I feel are totally messed up and need to be fixed. Nevertheless, since no man is an island, I can take comfort that at least it isn't Iran or North Korea that commands my loyalty, but a country in which I am (for the most part) free to express my opinions without retribution.

For example: on Sundays, I never make national holidays set precedent for the Sunday service theme, but rather adhere to the liturgical calendar. On the 1st and on the 8th, I included prayers for our nation and its leaders, but in my preaching, did not even mention the 4th. Why? Because in my own thinking, worship is centered around Christ, not around the USA. It is at least one place that I feel my citizenship in this nation must take a back seat to a more important calling.

Nevertheless, as Christ himself did say, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," I do feel it is important for people to take their roles as citizens seriously, and seek to make positive contributions to their communities. And, at times, that will include challenging faulty ideals and practices that are prevalent in our society.

In short, my view of patriotism is one of balance: on one hand, we must recognize that we are citizens of this nation, like it or not, and as such have certain duties and responsibilities to our community and our country. But at the same time, we must also realize that, regardless of how great we consider our nation, there are always problems that need to be addressed, faults that need to be corrected, and conflicts that need to be resolved. As good citizens, it is our responsibility to our nation to seek to make such corrections when needed, and not simply wave our flags and sing our anthems in blissful ignorance of them.

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And I'm offended by people who blindly follow anything their government tells them is good just because they never have the wits or courage to question authority. Keep in mind I'm merely talking about questioning authority--not necessarily disobeying it. I'm offended by people who won't think for themselves.



Possibly Canada. They seem to have a lot of good going on, and don't think that I've never seriously considered moving there. I still am considering it.



The former, not necessarily, but the latter I will agree with. I didn't choose to be born here any more than I chose the skin color I was born with or any other such attribute. Why should I support some battle the country I live in is waging or feel that every law is correct and moral just because I happened to be born and raised in this nation? That'd be like saying I should feel obligated to find the descendants of slaves any of my ancestors may have had and give them money just because I'm White. Why should I have to fight a battle in which I didn't choose to partake in the first place?

Now, I know that once the first fist is thrown, bad stuff starts to happen, and the person it's thrown at either has the option of just taking it or trying to fight back. And I will admit that there ARE some things worth fighting for, but I'll be darned if I'm going to be told every battle I should have to fight just because of circumstances outside my control. I don't agree with everything the government does, and I don't care for what Bush says, because he's not my president--I voted for Kerry.

So no, I don't feel the need to be loyal just because I was born here. Like I said before, there are things I love about this country, and many freedoms for which I feel very grateful to have. But not everything that is good comes from a source that is itself 100% flawless. The source of these freedoms lies with past generations, and the current generation ruling this country is not the same, even if the nation still bears the same name and essential laws. Past wars were fought so that we wouldn't have people telling us what to do and how to live. Our current war feels like we're just trying to tell other countries and their peoples how they should live. America, while a country full of great freedoms, has its flaws, as Didy said, and one of those flaws I have perceived for a long time is outstanding arrogance. I don't support arrogance. And I find it wretched that we're so quick to judge other countries and their manner of culture when we still have so many problems here of our own to work out.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

People just so blindly follow their government (especially Americans). Do they not realize how destructive blind patriotism can be?

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I'd agree with that. How are you going to show love for your country - by which I mean, try to make your country/community a better place to live - if you're only interested in your own selfish concerns?



How so? What about the collective movements that fight against authoritarianism (e.g. The National League for Democracy in Burma, to name just one)?



You seem to be falling into the trap of those you claim are arrogant and hateful, by effectively agreeing that their definition of patriotism is the only correct one. Or, at least, by totally omitting the possibility of there being any other definition of patriotism.

Well, I was essentially referring to the common usage of the term anymore.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

This is pretty close to a thought I had on the subject today when I was at work.

To me, the whole "blindly obedient" thing is a bit of a fallacy. I don't know of anyone who is blindly obedient to the government. Everyone questions SOMETHING the government is doing. Some might not question them as much as others, but that says nothing about the intelligence of those people. Some people might be content with the way things are going. Some might actually agree with them.

I seem to remember that people like Rosalie and Deathly Pallor used to claim that anyone who disagreed with them was simply marching lock-step with the Bush Administration/neocon/bigots/scum-of-the-earth. Perhaps that's the root of the bad taste in my mouth any time someone questions patriotism.

Personally, I like to think of myself as rather patriotic. I love my country. Sure, it's not perfect. Sure, it's FAR from perfect. I realize that, and I'm working to change the things that separate it from perfection.
However, it is a lot better than a lot of other places on earth. To to borrow a line used by a Cuban immigrant at work anytime someone starts complaining about the US in the break room, "How many boats do you see leaving Miami for Havana?".

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Individualism isn't selfish, individuals are selfish. You can be an individualist while helping others.


Collectivism assumes that everyone is part of one body or many different bodies, but in my opinion everyone belongs to themselves first and foremost (unless you yourself believe otherwise),and then you can individually choose to be part of a group. Why do you call the NLD collectivist when clearly democracy is more individualist than a military regime?

You seem not to understand that individualism is just the belief that the individual is the one that should make their own decision, not selfishness.Of course some individualists can be selfish, but others aren't. Individualists don't judge people by what group they are part of, but judge them by their own individual merits.

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Three, although Michael Moore was in one of them.

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But the problem isn't really with the philosophy of self-actualisation itself, but with the possible result. That is, as people become more individual, fragmentation of society might occur. But fair enough - I'd agree that the self should be a person's first priority. As long as meaningful participation in society is a second, that's fine.



Yeah, I get that. But it's still the wrong way of looking at the act of patriotism. And judging from what you said, it seems as though you believe it yourself. I mean, by that definition, the likes of Aung San Suu Kyi would be "unpatriotic", because she doesn't blindly obey the will of her government.

(My t'pence: patriotism needn't be hurling yourself at the bayonets of your enemies, and it's not just some vague romantic feeling, and it certainly isn't about going along with the status quo. It can just be something as simple as volunteering in a community garden, or checking that your elderly neighbours are comfortable.

You know the maxim "All politics is local"? All patriotism is local, too, imo. Meh, but that's just me.)

I just think that people should be left to decide what their priorities should be. I, for one,would rather be running a soup kitchen in a poor neighborhood than working for a paycheck to get food in my own mouth, but then again I don't have to work just yet. I am an individualist because I think it should be left up to the individual to figure out their priorities. If their priority is themselves, so be it, if it's their religion so be it, and if it's others so be it. I'm just a weird individualist.

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