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The Fall of Falwell
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11445		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Sat May 19, 2007 10:54 pm ]
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Didymus wrote:
Myrrh wrote:
Joking aside, I can only say this makes me happy, especially as a bisexual person myself. I hope that if there is an afterlife, he will learn his lesson there.

I fail to see how that gives you the right to take pleasure in the man's death. While Falwell did openly express his disapproval of homosexual behavior (a disapproval, btw, that I myself share), I do not know that he ever took pleasure in the death of someone he disagreed with. This goes right back to what I stated on the first page: if you express hate for the man on account of mistakes he's made, then you yourself are no better.

The sad thing is that many of these people simply are too stubborn to listen to reason and stop promoting hatred, and that even when offered rock-hard evidence that what they do is wrong, they fail to understand. His death ends this. I wouldn't want to go to his funeral and clap and smile and say "Hey, everyone, isn't this great?" or even just openly celebrate his death, but however wrong it may be, it makes me glad to think that there is one less advocate of hate in the world.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun May 20, 2007 4:56 am ]
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Oh, don't get me wrong. The man certainly needed to learn a few things about being wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. And I certainly didn't agree with him on a lot of things he said and did in his life. I just don't think it would help turning this into a "BURN IN HELL, YA HOMOPHOBE!" thread.
Author:  StrongRad [ Sun May 20, 2007 5:43 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
I just don't think it would help turning this into a "BURN IN HELL, YA HOMOPHOBE!" thread.

Seeing that made me wonder whatever happened to the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing?

Falwell was a pain in the butt, but he wasn't an evil man (compared to someone like, say, Saddam Hussein, Timothy McVeigh, or even Fred Phelps). While I may not agree with everything he said, I do appreciate the fact that he stood up for what he believed and made no apologies for it.
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Sun May 20, 2007 12:27 pm ]
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Yeltensic wrote:
Quote:
Seeing that made me wonder whatever happened to the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing?


I'm not really sure why anyone would expect me to obey the Bible. ;)


I think regardless of the coincidental moral teaching from a religion, it STILL seems like good secular moral advice to simply be the bigger man and not allow one's self to fall into a state of utter contempt for someone, even if they themselves were guilty of showing such contempt. Once you start seeking an eye for an eye, it DOES bring you down to the level of loatheliness that the one you've condemned has already (at least by perception) reached from his/her own actions. Once again, my battle cry seems to apply here: Alas, how quickly the judged become the judgers.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, there IS a part of me that wants to celebrate his death...but ultimately, I know that would be wrong. I think what we should celebrate is not the fact that the person died, but that the actions and speech he produced--ones that initiated bigotry, prejudice, and hate in many others--have finally passed. It would have been far nicer, though, had he chosen to simply rescind all that while he was still alive instead of taking it to the grave.
Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Sun May 20, 2007 3:50 pm ]
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Yeltensic wrote:
Count me in, Mandy.

I'll be sure and bring my "non-God hates Phelps" sign. :mrgreen:


Somehow, I doubt God exactly approves of his actions either...;)

As for homosexuality, I...really fail to see WHY God would have a problem with it. Yes, I know, Leviticus, all that stuff, but it honestly makes no sense WHATSOEVER. None.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun May 20, 2007 5:08 pm ]
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Quote:
As for homosexuality, I...really fail to see WHY God would have a problem with it. Yes, I know, Leviticus, all that stuff, but it honestly makes no sense WHATSOEVER. None.

Because it is not the way God created us to be. Think about it: male and female anatomy were designed to work together. God gave mankind the gift of sexuality, and mankind abused it.

But here, I must also remind you that it is not necessary to understand his reasons for his disapproval. He has said he disapproves; the question for you is whether you trust him when he says so. And not just in Leviticus.
Author:  Rocoramore [ Sun May 20, 2007 7:14 pm ]
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PianoManGidley wrote:
Rocoramore wrote:
The thing is, he did what God wanted....


You'd have to show us good reason why we should believe Falwell was doing what God wanted. You'd have to define God and then define what God wants.
He followed the 10 commandments. But you have a good point, I really don't know what God wants besides that.
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Sun May 20, 2007 8:06 pm ]
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Rocoramore wrote:
PianoManGidley wrote:
Rocoramore wrote:
The thing is, he did what God wanted....


You'd have to show us good reason why we should believe Falwell was doing what God wanted. You'd have to define God and then define what God wants.
He followed the 10 commandments. But you have a good point, I really don't know what God wants besides that.


This assumes that the Christian definition of God is correct.

Didymus wrote:
Because it is not the way God created us to be. Think about it: male and female anatomy were designed to work together. God gave mankind the gift of sexuality, and mankind abused it.


Many animals other than humans commit homosexual and bisexual acts. Is that all the doing of mankind, too?
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Sun May 20, 2007 11:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
I just don't think it would help turning this into a "BURN IN HELL, YA HOMOPHOBE!" thread.

I think it would take a Rosalie-esque person to do that. Seems like we're keeping this an intelligent discussion about the guy and his life/death.

Yeltensic wrote:
Quote:
Think about it: male and female anatomy were designed to work together


Male and female anatomy both work pretty well with male/female mouth anatomy, too. Or hand anatomy.

Just saying.

And furthermore, just because two things are designed to work together doesn't mean they HAVE to. I don't see how homosexual/bisexual behavior is causing anyone any harm.
Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Sun May 20, 2007 11:17 pm ]
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Didymus wrote:
Quote:
As for homosexuality, I...really fail to see WHY God would have a problem with it. Yes, I know, Leviticus, all that stuff, but it honestly makes no sense WHATSOEVER. None.

Because it is not the way God created us to be. Think about it: male and female anatomy were designed to work together. God gave mankind the gift of sexuality, and mankind abused it.

But here, I must also remind you that it is not necessary to understand his reasons for his disapproval. He has said he disapproves; the question for you is whether you trust him when he says so. And not just in Leviticus.


You know, Didymus, they're not abusing it. It's not like they have a choice. And remember that the same sections condemning homosexuality condemned things such as wearing mixed-material clothing.

I also doubt God makes completely arbitrary decisions--he MUST have his reasons, and there are no truly legitimate reasons to condemn homosexuality. Just because they're not making babies doesn't mean they're an abomination.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Sun May 20, 2007 11:27 pm ]
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I love how pretty much every thread in R&P ends up as the same argument. :rolleyes:
Author:  Didymus [ Sun May 20, 2007 11:36 pm ]
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Mandy, the whole thing about mixed material cloth is mentioned ONCE in all of Scripture, and that was part of a holiness code specific to the Hebrew people. Condemnation of homosexual behavior is a consistent theme throughout Scripture, in both the Old and New Testaments. And I'm not convinced that they don't have a choice to some degree. A person may always choose which desires they feel, but they certainly do choose which ones they act upon. As an unmarried heterosexual, I'm not at liberty to act on every impulse I feel either.

As I have pointed out here and elsewhere, God in the beginning created men and women to be together. I furthermore pointed out God, in his Word, does in fact commend male-female relationships and forbids same sex relationships. I can only therefore conclude that, regardless of popular social and political (and even in some cases religious) opinions, homosexuality is contrary to God's will.
Author:  Mike D [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:16 am ]
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“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals, it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.” -- Jerry Falwell

Yes, there's some anger at Falwell, and some people are genuinely glad he's gone. Falwell devoted a great deal of time, effort, and money to opposing the LGBT community's ongoing pursuit of civil rights. This is why many people viewed him and continue to view him as destructive. He's a good example of what Richard Dawkins was talking about when he said that religion is dangerous "because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness."

Personally I don't doubt that the Bible condemns homosexuality. Given the history of the church it seems an inarguable point. The question is, should the Bible influence law? Even if every word of the Bible is literal truth, does God need us (sinners all, and one no better than any other) to enforce his will?

Mike
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
A person may always choose which desires they feel, but they certainly do choose which ones they act upon. As an unmarried heterosexual, I'm not at liberty to act on every impulse I feel either.

Someone who is purely homosexual feels no attraction to the opposite sex, and, were they to suppress their desires, would never find romantic fulfillment. How would this person be able to enjoy their life?
Author:  Didymus [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:27 am ]
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Myrrh, who ever said that romantic love is the only meaningful thing or the most important thing in life? To my knowledge, there have been plenty of people in history who were just as happy without it. Nevertheless, the issue still ends up being one of trust and obedience to God's will. If God says it's wrong, then who are we human beings to argue against him?
Author:  Marshmallow Roast [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Didymus wrote:
Myrrh, who ever said that romantic love is the only meaningful thing or the most important thing in life? To my knowledge, there have been plenty of people in history who were just as happy without it. Nevertheless, the issue still ends up being one of trust and obedience to God's will. If God says it's wrong, then who are we human beings to argue against him?

I'm certainly not saying that love is the only or the most important thing in life, but it certainly IS important to most people. Most. And the majority of people would feel incredibly empty without it.

Now, as far as God's will, if there were even one reason that could be shown to explain why God condemns homosexuality, I would understand (though I still would not agree.) I suppose it could be argued that it doesn't result in children, but really, the Earth is suffering from overpopulation, and besides: as has been stated before, animals have been known to act that way too. So it can't be entirely against human instincts, either.

The argument that men and women were made for each other doesn't really make much sense to me. Sure, if you believe in the story of Adam and Eve, then it's true that God created women so that they could be with men. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong for men to be with men, or women to be with women. Not everything needs to stick to its original purpose- a fly can be swatted with a flyswatter, or with a magazine.
Author:  Didymus [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:45 am ]
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But here's the problem, Myrrh: God is the Creator, and we are his creatures. He does have the right to condemn certain behaviors, if they are not what he created us for. And he is under no obligation to answer to us for his reasons to condemn those behaviors. I find your argument, "I don't understand why he would," to be simply sidestepping the issue, rather than addressing what he actually does say on the subject.

So really it comes down to this: are you willing to accept God's authority on this subject, or are you intent on following your own reasoning rather than the will of God? For my part, if your intent is to convince me that God does not in fact condemn homosexual behavior, then you've got a lot of exegetical work to do.

But as far as sexual desire goes, I can't help but remember the words of Jesus himself: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?" (Matthew 16:24-26). What does he mean by "deny himself" except this: that sometimes we have to set aside our own desires, our own pleasures, for the sake of following a higher purpose? Jesus himself did just that. Do you think he wanted to be crucified? No, he didn't. His prayer in Gethsemane shows us that. And yet, he set aside his own personal desires and followed the will of God, even though it meant torture and death. We are to do likewise. And somehow, I don't think that refraining from sexual behavior is nearly as torturous as being crucified would be.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Mon May 21, 2007 1:47 am ]
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I believe we have a thread about homosexuality. I also believe this issue has been hashed and re-hashed about 700 times here.

Can we stick to the topic?
Author:  StrongRad [ Mon May 21, 2007 2:14 am ]
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lahimatoa wrote:
I believe we have a thread about homosexuality. I also believe this issue has been hashed and re-hashed about 700 times here.

Can we stick to the topic?

^^
Above post is the first time that EVERYONE agrees with a Lahi post in R&P.

Thanks for saying something that was sorely needed, man. Image
Author:  TacoBob [ Mon May 21, 2007 3:56 pm ]
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So.....When will they finish the dance floor over his grave?
Author:  furrykef [ Mon May 21, 2007 5:08 pm ]
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I think that's exactly the sort of post we've been trying to avoid...
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Mon May 21, 2007 7:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeltensic wrote:
Quote:
So.....When will they finish the dance floor over his grave?


In a few weeks. It'll be a little longer before they put in a disco ball and disco lights.


You've got the set-up a bit wrong. It'll be a perfect recreation of the main club the main characters from "Queer As Folk" often go to. Whoops...I mean...bad posts! Bad!

Seriously, though, I still stand by what I said before about it not being important that the man died so much as the hate he perpetuated is no longer spewing.
Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Tue May 22, 2007 1:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
...as has been stated before, animals have been known to (practice homosexual behavior) that way too.


<devil's advocate>Keep in mind, though, animals have also been known to practice necrophiliac behavior. No, I am not kidding.</devil's advocate>

Is the dance floor gonna have a snack bar?
Author:  IantheGecko [ Tue May 22, 2007 1:27 am ]
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TOASTPAINT!

OK, so Falwell died. I don't appreciate what he did, but I do respect him as a fellow human being. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Author:  Exhibit A [ Tue May 22, 2007 2:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
...as has been stated before, animals have been known to (practice homosexual behavior) that way too.


<devil's advocate>Keep in mind, though, animals have also been known to practice necrophiliac behavior. No, I am not kidding.</devil's advocate>

That's true. Just because animals do something, that doesn't make it okay for humans to do.
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Tue May 22, 2007 3:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Exhibit A wrote:
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Marshmallow Roast wrote:
...as has been stated before, animals have been known to (practice homosexual behavior) that way too.


<devil's advocate>Keep in mind, though, animals have also been known to practice necrophiliac behavior. No, I am not kidding.</devil's advocate>

That's true. Just because animals do something, that doesn't make it okay for humans to do.


That may be, but it does a lot to discredit the argument saying "it's not natural."
Author:  DESTROY US ALL! [ Tue May 22, 2007 8:52 pm ]
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Well the last time I checked humans are Animals. Or unless there is a new kingdom: Humania or something I haven't learned about.
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Tue May 22, 2007 8:55 pm ]
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DESTROY US ALL! wrote:
Well the last time I checked humans are Animals. Or unless there is a new kingdom: Humania or something I haven't learned about.


You'd be surprised. I've run into people who stubbornly debate that humans should not be classified as animals, and that taxonomy is inherently wrong...because "we have souls and animals don't." Furthermore, in common usage, "animals" refers to "animals other than humans." Without realizing it most of the time, we make a reference that continues to distinguish our own species from the rest.
Author:  Didymus [ Tue May 22, 2007 9:01 pm ]
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But unlike most animals, humans aren't slaves to their instincts. We have the ability to think and reason that is quite far advanced than most animals. And so, in some ways we are like other animals, but in other ways, we're not.
Author:  StrongRad [ Tue May 22, 2007 9:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
lahimatoa wrote:
I believe we have a thread about homosexuality. I also believe this issue has been hashed and re-hashed about 700 times here.

Can we stick to the topic?

Seriously folks... Take it to another thread. This thread's about Falwell.
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