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Well, you're not doing a very good job at the Second Greatest Commandment. And the Vash Commandment.

And no, Falwell is NOT one of the biggest homophobe in recent history. That title belongs to Fred Phelps, who not only criticizes homosexual behavior (as Falwell did), but openly encourages violent action against homosexuals and their families.

Ah, Paul Cameron. Another one whose death I would joyfully celebrate. Actually, if I had the chance and knew I would get away with it, I might just go ahead and kill the CENSOR'D myself.

I, too see the irony of directing so much hate at someone because they are a hate-monger.

God hates the sin, but He loves the sinner.

On the other hand, one could argue that Falwell was more dangerous because his message reached many many more people, and many more people agree with him...

But if his message isn't one of open hatred (as Phelps' is), I fail to see how it could be more dangerous.

By the way, while making this post, I just found out that Phelps is going to picket Falwell's funeral. Ugh.

The thing is, he did what God wanted....

furrykef wrote:

By the way, while making this post, I just found out that Phelps is going to picket Falwell's funeral. Ugh.

You know, when Phelps dies, I fully plan to fly over and picket HIS funeral. And then dance on his grave.

Joking aside, I can only say this makes me happy, especially as a bisexual person myself. I hope that if there is an afterlife, he will learn his lesson there.

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Wed May 16, 2007 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	The Fall of Falwell
In case you guys didn't hear, Jerry Falwell died yesterday from heart complications. Linky. I know I'm not supposed to revel in someone's death or anything...but even though many people are sad that he died, I can't help but feel a bit of relief that one of the loudest voices in homophobia is finally gone. A man who also called to arms millions of Americans to essentially break down the concept of Seperation of Church and State by enforcing their religiously-inspired morals into law. I know that what he did he felt was the right thing to do, but after blaming 9/11 on gays and feminists and Pagans and the like, I can't help but feel there was still a lot of hate behind his motives as well. Oh, well...he's gone now.

Author:	Inverse Tiger [ Wed May 16, 2007 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:
I don't have much to say about him. I didn't know him really at all, except for hearing about outlandish statements every so often. That's just what the news told me, though, so I'm willing to believe that's a slanted picture. His school is just an hour's drive south of me in Lynchburg. The county between here and there is like a dimensional portal separating bizarro-cities. We're complete opposites. Lynchburg is still very much a Southern town, very fundamentalist Christian and Republican. Charlottesville is very Democrat, very liberal, and much more culturally connected to the north these days. And I admit my instantaneous gut reaction to hearing he died was "whew, at least that's over." But I was still annoyed to go out to eat and overhear a bunch of conversations practically celebrating it. I mean, at least lay off someone when they die. But you better believe in a day or two I'd have no more problem going back to the Liberty University website and laughing what appears to be their particular implementation of Sharia law.

Author:	Beyond the Grave [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:07 am ]
Post subject:
Screw him! I hope St. Pete tells him Heaven doesn't have any room for homophobes.

Author:	IantheGecko [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:16 am ]
Post subject:
Ahem, Gravy. Well, by that logic, Heaven wouldn't have any room for alcoholics, murderers, & magic practicers, either. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Author:	Beyond the Grave [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:19 am ]
Post subject:
I'm stating my opinion. I am stating how I feel about him. I despise him. I have no respect for people who hate other people for something they have no control over.

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Author:	IantheGecko [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:24 am ]
Post subject:
Well, you're not doing a very good job at the Second Greatest Commandment. And the Vash Commandment.

Author:	IantheGecko [ Thu May 17, 2007 3:47 am ]
Post subject:
True, but that doesn't give you the right to trash him.

Author:	Didymus [ Thu May 17, 2007 5:06 am ]
Post subject:
If anything, you should feel sorry for the man. It seems to me that "homophobia" is the cardinal sin of the day; heck, there have been many a canonized saint who has said worse things about homosexuality in history, and yet I don't see anyone standing up to condemn them. But if Falwell truly was entirely without compassion (and there is a very real possibility that this is the case), then he is right now having to answer for that. So I pose the question to everyone in this thread: do you wish to be guilty of the same? And perhaps find yourself right next to him on the roasting rack (if that is indeed where he ends up)? If not, then I encourage you to think about your own attitude before condemning his. "Pull the plank out of your own eye; when you see clearly, then you can pull the speck out of your brother's." Frankly, I thought the man was a tard also. Especially his statement about 9-11; who made this man judge of the entire United States that he can say with resolute authority why it happened? It sickens me to think about it. Nevertheless, it is not my place - nor is it yours - to determine this man's fate. If anything, try having at least a tad of that compassion that he was lacking. Otherwise, you can claim to be no better.

Author:	Acekirby [ Thu May 17, 2007 5:11 am ]
Post subject:
IantheGecko wrote: Ahem, Gravy. Falwell was one of the biggest homophobes in modern history, and you're telling BTG to stop being a bigot for trashing him. ...

Author:	Didymus [ Thu May 17, 2007 6:15 am ]
Post subject:
I think Ian's trying to say that it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. And no, Falwell is NOT one of the biggest homophobe in recent history. That title belongs to Fred Phelps, who not only criticizes homosexual behavior (as Falwell did), but openly encourages violent action against homosexuals and their families. There are people plenty worse than Falwell. Let's try to keep some perspective here.

Author:	furrykef [ Thu May 17, 2007 6:29 am ]
Post subject:
On the other hand, one could argue that Falwell was more dangerous because his message reached many many more people, and many more people agree with him... Phelps, on the other hand, is doomed to never have any real influence. That said, I'd never have the kind of venom for Falwell that I have for Phelps. Falwell could just have been very misguided; Phelps is actually evil. - Kef

Author:	Didymus [ Thu May 17, 2007 6:43 am ]
Post subject:
Thanks, Kef. Pretty much what I was trying to say, only more to the point.

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Thu May 17, 2007 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:
Didymus wrote: And no, Falwell is NOT one of the biggest homophobe in recent history. That title belongs to Fred Phelps, who not only criticizes homosexual behavior (as Falwell did), but openly encourages violent action against homosexuals and their families. Unless you count shouting as "violent action," you're quite mistaken about Mr. Phelps and the WBC. Believe it or not, they actually take a stance against physical violence. As much as they "praise" the "fact" that Matthew Shepard is now in Hell, they still disagree with the boys who maimed and murdered him. Now, part of me just wants to believe that they're only preaching hatred with nonviolence so they won't get in trouble with the law, and that the heart of them all strongly desires to put a bullet in the head of every homosexual, bisexual, and transgendered person (and every heterosexual person that supports them)....but I won't ever be SURE unless they come right out and say it. There are homophobes that HAVE openly advocated violence against gays, and the only two I know of go so far as to advocate complete genocide of gay people: Bob Enyart and Paul Cameron.

Author:	Shippinator Mandy [ Thu May 17, 2007 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:
But Phelps HAS said some EXTREMELY cruel things, as Wikipedia shows. And take a look at this: "Phelps was first arrested in 1951 and found guilty of misdemeanor battery after attacking a Pasadena police officer. He has since been arrested for assault, battery, threats, trespassing, disorderly conduct, contempt of court, and several other charges; each time, he (along with Westboro and its other members) has filed suit against the city, the police, and the arresting officers. Though he has been able to avoid prison time, he has been convicted more than once:[42][43][44] 1994: Contempt of court[42] 1994: Two counts of assault (reduced to disorderly conduct on appeal)[43] Phelps' 1995 conviction for assault and battery carried a five-year prison sentence, with a mandatory 18 months to be served before he became eligible for parole." Emphasis mine. Despite him claiming to be "against violence", he is very clearly not. It sickens me that this man calls himself Christian. Besides, this is a man who pickets funerals. How could anyone possibly support something so horrible? (I'm not saying any of you do, of course.) As for Falwell...yes, he was a bigoted jackwad, and he was not a good example of Christian kindness either. But as far as I know, he was not as completely hateful as Phelps, who is, quite frankly, an evil man.

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Author:	lahimatoa [ Fri May 18, 2007 6:24 am ]
Post subject:
I, too see the irony of directing so much hate at someone because they are a hate-monger.

Author:	furrykef [ Fri May 18, 2007 8:20 am ]
Post subject:
I'm with Yeltensic on that one...

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Fri May 18, 2007 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:
lahimatoa wrote: I, too see the irony of directing so much hate at someone because they are a hate-monger. If hate-mongering is sin, and God hates sin, does that make God a hypocrite?

Author:	IantheGecko [ Fri May 18, 2007 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:
God hates the sin, but He loves the sinner.

Author:	Shippinator Mandy [ Fri May 18, 2007 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:
IantheGecko wrote: God hates the sin, but He loves the sinner. Exactly! If only these people recognized that. Instead, they believe that all sinners are going to be cast into the lake of fire. (They also count ignoring "KEEP OFF THE GRASS" signs as a sin.)

Author:	Acekirby [ Fri May 18, 2007 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:
Didymus wrote: And no, Falwell is NOT one of the biggest homophobe in recent history. That title belongs to Fred Phelps, who not only criticizes homosexual behavior (as Falwell did), but openly encourages violent action against homosexuals and their families. There are people plenty worse than Falwell. Let's try to keep some perspective here. Kef said what I was thinking (as he seems to usually do). furrykef wrote: On the other hand, one could argue that Falwell was more dangerous because his message reached many many more people, and many more people agree with him... Also notice I didn't say "the biggest and worst", in which case I wholeheartedly agree with Phelps being the worst. I'm just saying Falwell was a huge person in the anti-homosexual world.

Author:	Didymus [ Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:
But if his message isn't one of open hatred (as Phelps' is), I fail to see how it could be more dangerous. I stand by my earlier statement: there are people plenty worse than Falwell.

Author:	Acekirby [ Fri May 18, 2007 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:
I am aware of that. Just because I think he was one of the most pronounced doesn't mean I think he was the worst. I agree that Phelps is much worse than Falwell.

Author:	furrykef [ Fri May 18, 2007 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:
Didymus wrote: But if his message isn't one of open hatred (as Phelps' is), I fail to see how it could be more dangerous. Put another way: with Falwell, we have a bit of intolerance spread out over a very wide area. With Phelps, we have an extreme amount of intolerance packed into one man (and his church, his immediate surroundings, and whoever he reaches through his website). Phelps is, without a doubt, far worse as a person. (Falwell himself called Phelps a "first-class nut".) However, a little bit of intolerance spread over a wide area is still bad. A lot of intolerance in a small, localized area is arguably not as bad, because it's not going to affect very many people. Also, let's not forget that "a little bit of intolerance" can inspire more than a little bit of intolerance in other people. Put yet another way, if Hitler weren't in any position of power, there's a good chance that he wouldn't have even hurt anybody. But somebody only a fraction as bad as Hitler can still easily do a lot of harm if he's in a position of power. (I'm not saying that Falwell was some kind of mini-Hitler, of course... I'm just making the point that a little intolerance over a wide area can indeed be worse than a lot of intolerance in a small area.) By the way, while making this post, I just found out that Phelps is going to picket Falwell's funeral. Ugh. - Kef

Author:	Rocoramore [ Sat May 19, 2007 1:23 am ]
Post subject:
You know, this has really made me think about something. I'm gonna post a new thread about it in a sec. EDIT: Changed my mind. It was gonna be "Would a person like Falwell go to Heaven?" I didn't post it because there are many athiests on this forum, so I didn't think it would go over too well. The thing is, he did what God wanted, but he was also a horrible, horrible person. See, that's what I've been thinking about.

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:07 am ]
Post subject:
Rocoramore wrote: The thing is, he did what God wanted.... You'd have to show us good reason why we should believe Falwell was doing what God wanted. You'd have to define God and then define what God wants.

Author:	Marshmallow Roast [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:
Shippinator Mandy wrote: furrykef wrote: By the way, while making this post, I just found out that Phelps is going to picket Falwell's funeral. Ugh. You know, when Phelps dies, I fully plan to fly over and picket HIS funeral. And then dance on his grave. Unfortunately, Phelps is never going to die. He shall draw energy from the spirit of darkness and necromance his corpse into a neverending reign of hatred and rotten stench. Joking aside, I can only say this makes me happy, especially as a bisexual person myself. I hope that if there is an afterlife, he will learn his lesson there.

Author:	Didymus [ Sat May 19, 2007 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:
Myrrh wrote: Joking aside, I can only say this makes me happy, especially as a bisexual person myself. I hope that if there is an afterlife, he will learn his lesson there. I fail to see how that gives you the right to take pleasure in the man's death. While Falwell did openly express his disapproval of homosexual behavior (a disapproval, btw, that I myself share), I do not know that he ever took pleasure in the death of someone he disagreed with. This goes right back to what I stated on the first page: if you express hate for the man on account of mistakes he's made, then you yourself are no better. With Phelps, I could understand; the man's message is one of open hatred.