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 Post subject: Catholic/religious school?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:03 am 
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I sort of... accidentally stumbled upon a debate some other people were having and I wondered: What do you think of Catholic or religious schools?

It seems as though some think that Christian values are being forced upon children, which upsets those people. The person I was talking to was talking about how it's pounded into them and that's all the school really wants.

But, the counter-argument religious schools are not necessarily opposed to other religions. It's just more friendly to religion/Christianity, since religion is being zoned out in a lot of public schools. And some people just go there because the education is better than at some public schools.

I personally am not sure what to think about this issue. As an atheist, I really want to take the first side I mentioned, but I think that would be really biased and unfair for me to do, especially since I never have been to a Catholic school. Although I did visit there once. And I think I went to a Luteran school for like preschool or something– that didn't last long. (No, it's not about religion, I just was... a lot more agressive back then.)

TELL WHAT U TH- Oh wait, no one says that anymore. My bad.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:10 am 
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Well, I did go to a Catholic high school. While it was not overly zealous of it's religion, it had it's moments. It taught evolution in science, and creation in the religious classes. And as for a better education, it all depends on the school. Some are better than others.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:12 am 
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I don't think it really matters. At a private school, they can preach burger-worship for all I care.

On a side note, I used to be on my school's quiz bowl team, and I always thought it was freaking hilarious when we beat a Catholic school to a question on religion.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:40 am 
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I don't think it really matters. At a private school, they can preach burger-worship for all I care.


I'm with Simon. Private schools are called private for a reason.

There's a Catholic school near the high school I went to. Better education and better sports teams. Also more expensive. Fine with me.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:44 am 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
I don't think it really matters. At a private school, they can preach burger-worship for all I care.


I kinda wanna agree. I mean, this is supposed to be the land of freedom and opportunity, so if people want to set up schools that incorporate whatever religion, they should have the right to do so. Don't like the school? Then don't send your kids there.

Would I send my kids to one? No, but then, I already have problems with our overall school system on a fundamental level to begin with...I'd probably home-school my kids or something. Did I ever attend a religious school myself? Yes, when I was growing up in Tulsa, I attended a Protestant private school that held church services for us kids every Friday morning (mandatory attendance, of course). What did I think of it? At the time, I had no problem with it, because I was a kid and didn't really think much of it either way. It was all that I knew.

However, in retrospect, I'd say that I can blame much of my postponement of my social development to that school, because we were taught to never say or do anything even remotely mean, meaning that I was never called out on anytime I was being socially awkward, so I didn't learn those lessons until later in life.

But then again, that's just my personal experience with that particular school. Other kids of course had other experiences with that school, and still many others have different experiences from other schools, both religious and non-religious, public or private. I can't speak for everyone here--just me.

My warning to any caring parent is to simply investigate the school as in-depth as you can. Make sure it fits what you're looking for in a school. Make sure you know where you want schools to influence your children and where you want to influence your children, and how in each regard. And make sure you love your kids and respect that they will grow up to be individuals that are not carbon-copies of you and everything you hold dear. Nurturing your kids is one thing--controlling them is another.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic/religious school?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:30 am 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
The person I was talking to was talking about how it's pounded into them and that's all the school really wants.


And I believe I was talking to 'em earlier as well, but they just weren't getting it...there's nothing wrong with religious schools. If you don't agree with it, fine. You don't have to send your kids there.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:08 am 
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I don't see where there's an issue?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:08 am 
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As long as the school teaches the state curriculum, I'm fine with any private school. It's what the USA is all about.

*cry* I LOVE THIS COUNTRY

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:31 pm 
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PieMax wrote:
I don't see where there's an issue?


Some people would rather not see religion--or in many cases, a specific religion, such as Christianity--being taught to any kids in any schools whatsoever. These people have grown up with such bad experiences from said religion that they would rather it just go away entirely, believing that nothing good can come out of it because of all the bad things it's attributed to causing (such as wars and prejudice). Despite what some people may say, there IS a war on Christianity going on in this country, but that doesn't mean either side is wholly in the right nor wholly in the wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:34 pm 
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I don't think you should label a school, and thus the children in that school, with a certain opinion of any kind. Imagine a school that specializes in a political position, for example. I think it's fine if you teach just facts and history about religions, but not if you teach the children that they're supposed to believe in a specific one. And I don't think private or public school should matter. Again, imagine if parents can decide to send their children to a private school that teaches a specific political opinion of the parents choice. I'm not saying parents should be restricted from influenceing their children, but a school is a place for facts and knowledge, not opinions and beliefs.

Besides, isn't this what churches are for? Why send your children to a school/church hybrid when you can just send them to both school and church?
[mock]
Unless you want to send your children to a school/church hybrid, and to church, to gain maximum influence I guess... Oh, wait, there already are places like that; monasteries.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:48 pm 
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I'm not saying parents should be restricted from influenceing their children, but a school is a place for facts and knowledge, not opinions and beliefs.

The funny thing about that is that religious schools are actually becoming better than public schools at actually teaching facts and knowledge. How's that for a twist?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:00 pm 
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DukeNuke wrote:
I'm not saying parents should be restricted from influenceing their children, but a school is a place for facts and knowledge, not opinions and beliefs.
But most don't. The one Ramrod and I went to didn't shove their beliefs down our throats. They never told us, "We're right and everything else is wrong." They gave us facts. They gave us the facts about the Catholic Church. They gave us knowledge on what the Catholic Church was about.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:02 pm 
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How so? Many religious teachings cannot be labeled as absolute fact, but they are taught in Catholic/religious schools nonetheless, while public schools are not affiliated with religion.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:02 pm 
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It's zany! Our catholic schools are public, all you have to do is register with the catholic school board and be a registered catholic (or whatever). It's all fine, unless the person going to the school isn't religious. One of my friends goes to catholic school and is an atheist and her parents won't let her switch out to a regular school (it wouldn't be that big of a deal, it's just down the street from her school). The only great injustice/problem with catholic schools is some parents force their non-religious kids to go there. Blame the parents for forcing religion, not the school.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:07 pm 
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HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:
How so? Many religious teachings cannot be labeled as absolute fact, but they are taught in Catholic/religious schools nonetheless, while public schools are not affiliated with religion.

The problem is that public schools are teaching less and less facts at all, what with lower standards and all that. It's gotten to where, in some public school systems, if you want your kids to learn anything at all, you have to teach them yourself. Either that, or send them to a private school. So in a very real sense, affiliation with a religion or lack thereof is almost an arbitrary point anymore. What really matters is the educational standards that the particular school maintains.

But pay attention to what BTG actually stated in his post: the school he and Ramrod attended taught the facts about what the Roman Catholic Church believes.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:09 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:
How so? Many religious teachings cannot be labeled as absolute fact, but they are taught in Catholic/religious schools nonetheless, while public schools are not affiliated with religion.


...pay attention to what BTG actually stated in his post: the school he and Ramrod attended taught the facts about what the Roman Catholic Church believes.


Dids makes a good point. There's a difference between saying a certain code of beliefs or ethics is "factually correct" and presenting the factual evidence of what a certain group believes and why they choose to do so. It's just an insider's teaching of that demographic. Even religious people can be just and objective when speaking about their own religious beliefs, especially when in comparison to other beliefs. It's not "they're wrong and I'm right"--it's simply "this is what they believe, and this is what I believe and why I believe it."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:35 pm 
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DukeNuke wrote:
...a school is a place for facts and knowledge, not opinions and beliefs.


Well, look at it this way. An English teacher might say that, for example, Tom Sawyer is a classic piece of American literature--which is, in my opinion (no pun intended), a matter of opinion or belief. There's not some board that decides what counts as classic literature, now is there?

Just an example, but opinions ARE taught in schools, to a degree, religious or otherwise.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:52 pm 
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That is assuming that there are no other criteria by which to objectively determine whether or not Tom Sawyer is a classic of American literature, except whether your teacher likes it or not. Other criteria may be involved in that process, for example, the book's staying power within American culture, book sales, literary analysis, etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:54 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
That is assuming that there are no other criteria by which to objectively determine whether or not Tom Sawyer is a classic of American literature, except whether your teacher likes it or not.


I honestly can't think of any other criteria...:/

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Didymus wrote:
That is assuming that there are no other criteria by which to objectively determine whether or not Tom Sawyer is a classic of American literature, except whether your teacher likes it or not.


I honestly can't think of any other criteria...:/


Because everyone else says so? :p

Seriously, I rarely find so-called "classic" American literature to be any good. Another way to tell if a book will be boring is if it's advertised as a book that will "change your life forever."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
On a side note, I used to be on my school's quiz bowl team, and I always thought it was freaking hilarious when we beat a Catholic school to a question on religion.


Haha I'm on the quiz-team-thingy at my school too. We were at a catholic school for a meet and playing that school. I've never read the Bible and I got a religious question before them. (But I just guessed a random Bible word and Exodus turned out to be right)

Around where I live the Catholic schools offer MUCH better education. But Dayton Christian Baptist school is an educational disaster zone.

Also Alter Catholic Schools has basketball players of a whole crap-load of faiths. They're team had one nation of Islam member.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:57 pm 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Didymus wrote:
That is assuming that there are no other criteria by which to objectively determine whether or not Tom Sawyer is a classic of American literature, except whether your teacher likes it or not.


I honestly can't think of any other criteria...:/


Quote:
Other criteria may be involved in that process, for example, the book's staying power within American culture, book sales, literary analysis, etc.


Einoo wrote:
Seriously, I rarely find so-called "classic" American literature to be any good.

That might be more of a commentary on the reader than on the literature in question.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:59 pm 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
Shippinator Mandy wrote:
Didymus wrote:
That is assuming that there are no other criteria by which to objectively determine whether or not Tom Sawyer is a classic of American literature, except whether your teacher likes it or not.


I honestly can't think of any other criteria...:/


Because everyone else says so? :p

Seriously, I rarely find so-called "classic" American literature to be any good. Another way to tell if a book will be boring is if it's advertised as a book that will "change your life forever."


I dunno...two of my favorite books (Looking For Alaska and An Abundance Of Katherines, both by John Green) have been advertised as such (I think; I know I've seen it said about An Abundance Of Katherines, but Looking For Alaska is the kinda book that, IMHO, could very well change your life forever).

And yes. I mean, I did kinda like To Kill A Mockingbird, but I found Tom Sawyer and Of Mice And Men to be some of the worst stuff I've ever [s]written[/s] READ (darn typos...). And Siddhartha...gah. (Not American, true, but it IS regarded as a classic.) One of the worst books ever written.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:47 pm 
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Shippinator Mandy wrote:
...but I found Tom Sawyer and Of Mice And Men to be some of the worst stuff I've ever written.

Dude...

so you're both John Steinbeck and Mark Twain?

AT THE SAME TIME?

Anyway, as far as Catholic schools go... I don't agree with it. I think if you want your children to grow up to be religious, fine with me, just keep it at home. School is a place for learning, not religion.

But that's just my opinion. Whatever.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:45 pm 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
I don't think it really matters. At a private school, they can preach burger-worship for all I care.

I agree with Zeno. It's a private school. They can teach whatever they want, it's entirely the parents' decision to send their kids there.

On another note, I go to a Catholic high school. Now those of you who know me know that I'm not really religious at all. The liturgies that they have are actually the only liturgies I've ever been to. Sure, we have religion class, and they kind of push morals on you, but whatever. See the above reason why I don't care. All I know is that religion aside, I know I'm actually getting a really good education. Also of note is that our school does not deny people entry if they are not Catholic - a girl in my class is Jewish.

Here's a funny point: I have never been to a Church service of any kind (excepting a family members' baptism/christening/ect) before I entered this school. I went to public school until 9th Grade. I am the best student in my grade in Theology (religion) class - I've had a 100% average for the last three terms. Now keep in mind I'm beating a lot of kids who have gone to Church all their lives...



And on a completely unrelated note, I've always been hit-or-miss with the American "classics" I have to read. I thought both Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird were fantastic, though I didn't like Of Mice and Men.

Shakespeare gets this reaction from me too: I didn't care for Romeo and Juliet, but I absolutely loved Julius Caesar.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:35 am 
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To further clarify, what makes a particular work a "classic" isn't purely whether modern people enjoy reading it or not. In the bigger picture, that's actually one of the least criteria for determining a classic. There are far better elements of a classic than enjoyment, and that's one of the reasons why classics are required reading anyway: to teach people to appreciate what it is they're reading on different levels.

Other criteria include:

1. The "staying power" of the particular work, that is to say, how that work has remained within the cultural conscience of a society at large. Shakespeare, for example, has a great deal of staying power, largely because his works have a sort of timeless quality to them, in spite of the antiquated language in which they were written. Take Romeo and Juliette for example: how many different versions of this story have been made, and remade, and played upon, in various media, including movies, television shows, etc.? The Lord of the Rings, while a more recent work, would certainly fit this criterion very well, considering the drastic impact this work has had in influencing both culture and literature over the past 50 years or so.

2. The "cultural or social commentary" of the work. Works that are often labeled "classics" usually have a great deal to say about the place and time in which they are written. Tom Sawyer and Of Mice and Men are both excellent examples of this. Now, I'm more familiar with Huckleberry Finn, so I'll concentrate on it. The book has a great deal to say about racism, slavery, and the culture of 19th century America. For this reason, I find it shameful that some people want these classics removed from required reading lists because of racist language; such an attitude is almost counter to the reason Twain wrote it in there. And Of Mice and Men, certainly if someone wants to learn about the Great Depression, it is one of many great books that can help give a good picture of life during that era.

3. Philosophical aspects of the work. Almost any work worth reading is going to present you with some idea of the worldview of the author. In Huckleberry Finn, for example, the reader is presented with some of Clement's own theological and philosophical ideals, particularly in the discussion between Huck and his aunt about the nature of heaven. In Of Mice and Men, the reader is presented with a view of life based on the ambitions of the two main characters - namely the rabbit farm. On one level, it represents the ideal American Dream, a life dictated by the work and desires of the person, but on another level, it represents Paradise, or heaven. In either case, due to the sheer absurdity of the world itself, such happiness is never to be found by men; no matter how grand such illusions may seem to us as we dream them, reality always breaks in and destroys them. At least this was Steinbeck's worldview, and one that he communicates through his story.

But these are the main reasons these particular works are considered classics, not because some teacher somewhere decided that he liked them, and so they were to be taught rather than other works. So while reading such works, it helps to read them, not just on the level of enjoyment (or lack thereof), but on deeper levels, to try and understand the author, their society and worldview, and perhaps their message for their world, and, to some degree, to the world in which we live today.

Quote:
Anyway, as far as Catholic schools go... I don't agree with it. I think if you want your children to grow up to be religious, fine with me, just keep it at home. School is a place for learning, not religion.

But, as I have already stated above, it is becoming so that learning is taking place less and less in public schools and more and more in private schools. A time will very likely come - unless something drastic occurs in our public educational systems to change it - that soon the only decent education to be had will be from religious institutions.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:03 am 
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Yeah Didy has a great point. The Zombie Survival Guide may be the best book ever written but it really has little literary merit. But sometimes the cultural references really aren't relevant anymore. Romeo and Juliet is complete trash...

And Toastpainting myself, due to an extreme amount of private religious schools Dayton, Ohio public schools actually need to advertise. I think all schools should become like private schools as in you get a choice, but still state funded. Ever since DPS enrollment dropped they really improved the system.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:22 am 
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
Anyway, as far as Catholic schools go... I don't agree with it. I think if you want your children to grow up to be religious, fine with me, just keep it at home. School is a place for learning, not religion.

But that's just my opinion. Whatever.


As we've said before, Myrrh, religious schools don't just shove religion down kids' throats.

I must ask you: have you ever been to a religious school? (I haven't, admittedly, but several forumgoers here have.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:48 pm 
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I currently attend a catholic high school. The purpose of the school is not by any means to "force religion upon anyone", or any of that stuff. All religion classes are taught objectively. For example, the teachers dont say, "gh0d iz reel, lol", but instead they simply present the possibility, and tell us what the catholic teaching is.
There are many people who belong to many different religions in my school. While the majority are christian, many are jewish, atheist, muslim, hindu, and buddhist. There is even a scientologist in my religion class.
The school never teaches any other religion as being "wrong", or anything like that.
I have always found it to be incredibly stupid when people say that religious schools are bad for promoting their religion. Would it be better for kids to go to a school that pretends that religions dont exist? Because that is what public schools are turning into.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:51 pm 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
I don't think it really matters. At a private school, they can preach burger-worship for all I care.


But I don't follow any sort of Religion at all so I wouldn't send my alternate universe-where-noid-has kids to one.

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