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Average Joe Theist's interpretation of God is one that goes only insofar as to make sure he (Average Joe) is never a sinner, and that God's judgement of hates and likes line up with Average Joe's judgements of the same.

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If that were true, Pianoguy, I'd have to ask you, then, what is the whole point of the Absolution portion of our worship services?

Not only that, but your assessment that our morality is already abstractly in place ignores the fact that our morality has been essentially the same for the past several centuries.

I don't really get how that's a 'No True Scottsman' fallacy. As long as there is a good, logical explanation for why they weren't Christians (for example, a way where their beliefs didn't follow scripture), I think it's fine.

Author:	zirnitra [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	God by proxy?
Anyone ever consider this: A lot of people, even in the same religion, have their own unique "God". In a sense, some people change how literal or liberal their interpretation of their own faith is, normally to better suit how they live their individual lives. Rarely will two people have their own God that are exactly the same, due to the fact that a lot of religious texts are usually open for interpretation by the reader. Could it not be said that, due to your altering of the "rough sketch" God, that you are worshiping yourself in a sense? Not in an egotistical sense, but wouldn't you just be worshiping what you stand for?

Author:	MikeMcG [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:25 am ]
Post subject:
Most likely, but fundamentally the god they worship is the same as everyone else's god. Vishnu still has multiple arms, no matter who you ask.

Author:	zirnitra [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:36 am ]
Post subject:
Obviously. But what they stand for and their overall rulings vary from person to person. Homosexuality, for instance, is stated to be wrong in The Bible. However, there are some Christians who believe that even if you are homosexual, if you live an overall good life you can still get into heaven, while others think that homosexuals are damned to hell. The reason for this most likely comes from the individual's morals. The former would have no problem with homosexuals, thus adjusting the ruling of God to fit their standards, while the latter most likely does have a problem with gay people, doing the same as the former. Just an interesting little idea [s]I came up with[/s] I read.

Author:	PianoManGidley [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:32 pm ]
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Yes. Very yes. I've been saying this for a while now. It seems more likely that God didn't create people in "His" image but that people create God in their own image. Average Joe Theist's interpretation of God is one that goes only insofar as to make sure he (Average Joe) is never a sinner, and that God's judgement of hates and likes line up with Average Joe's judgements of the same. Religion is such a great justification in that sense--it requires no proof whatsoever, is wholly subjective, though it claims to involve a completely objective and third-party observer who cannot or will not show itself, yet is allegedly omnipotent and omnipresent, that just happens to agree with its human witness. The way I see it, religion doesn't change the morality of people. People shape religion around their already-established sense of morality.

Author:	Didymus [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:
I disagree. My own understanding of God comes through the revelation of Holy Scripture, the writings of men who knew Jesus personally, who attested to his life and ministry, and who communicated his claims to be Lord. While it may be true that some people have their own ideas about God that do not match, my own beliefs are in submission to a common confession of God already in place. I have no doubt that some alter that common confession to fit their own ideas, but if they depart from it radically, then in a very real sense they are not part of the community of faith to which I adhere. But this is exactly why the early Church found it necessary to adhere to Creeds: as a way of basically saying, "This is what we believe, and if you wish to belong with us, this should be your confession as well." My own personal confession of God, as well as the communal confession of my own church body, and of the Christian Church in general, can be summarized by The Three Ecumenical Creeds. While it may be true that some people do allow their own subjective understanding of things shape their beliefs about God, this does not mean there is no objective standard to appeal to by which to claim a certain understanding. Quote: Average Joe Theist's interpretation of God is one that goes only insofar as to make sure he (Average Joe) is never a sinner, and that God's judgement of hates and likes line up with Average Joe's judgements of the same. If that were true, Pianoguy, I'd have to ask you, then, what is the whole point of the Absolution portion of our worship services? We Christians are fully aware that we are sinners as well, in need of forgiveness. And so we come humbly to the God who can grant it to us, seeking it. Not only that, but your assessment that our morality is already abstractly in place ignores the fact that our morality has been essentially the same for the past several centuries. We have a standard that we can point to. I also do not concur that the standards we hold, as you say, "wholly subjective," as we believe that our God has intervened in history, and continues to do so in the lives of his people.

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Author:	PianoManGidley [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:
Didymus wrote: Quote: Average Joe Theist's interpretation of God is one that goes only insofar as to make sure he (Average Joe) is never a sinner, and that God's judgement of hates and likes line up with Average Joe's judgements of the same. If that were true, Pianoguy, I'd have to ask you, then, what is the whole point of the Absolution portion of our worship services? From what I understand, Average Joe Theist doesn't usually even GO to church--he just believes more or less what he was brought up to believe. Quote: Not only that, but your assessment that our morality is already abstractly in place ignores the fact that our morality has been essentially the same for the past several centuries. I beg to differ. Morality has obviously changed over the centuries. Look at slavery, the Spanish Inquisition, Women's Suffrage, child labor laws, overthrowings of monarchies...all of these happen in societies wherein Christianity can be found, yet the people's morals change overtime, so the interpretation of the religious texts therefore also change to reflect the newly changed sense of morality. Otherwise, we'd still have very few female ministers, if any at all....among other things. And if you try to say that any of these people of the past were not "really" Christians, I'll call "No True Scotsman" fallacy on you.

Author:	ed 'lim' smilde [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:
I don't really get how that's a 'No True Scottsman' fallacy. As long as there is a good, logical explanation for why they weren't Christians (for example, a way where their beliefs didn't follow scripture), I think it's fine.

Author:	OneGyT [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:44 pm ]
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The way I see it, if God is real (which I believe He is) then the answer is no. It would be similar to people having minor misconceptions about me; they still are talking about me, not themselves or someone else. However, there are those purported gods that few if any consider to be the same one, for example Jesus and Krishna.

Author:	Didymus [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:
Exactly, Pianoman. Martin Luther certainly argued that inquisitions were a violation of the Lord's will, and I wholeheartedly concur. As for slavery, I did a paper for my Hebrew Law class years ago as to why slavery as it was practiced in the early United States was a clear violation of scriptural mandate, and I'd love to share it with anybody: just PM me an address I can email it to. I say as it was practiced in the US, not in general. While both the Old Testament and the New do not outright forbid slavery - and in fact encourage slaves to fulfill their responsibilities as such - both Testaments clearly forbid mistreatment of slaves, and even required owners to offer opportunities for them to go free after specific periods of service. It's all in the paper, if you care to request it. While I might refrain from whether such people were Christian in any ultimate sense, or whether they only called themselves such, I most certainly can point out whether their specific behaviors are in line with the objective biblical authority.

Author:	Pop_tire1 [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:
Psalms 34:8- "Taste and see that the LORD is good;" NIV. That's all I need; I know that my God is a good God. I do agree with some of the points you are making, different people have different versions of their God, but that's not to replicate themselves, that is because different people need different things from their father. A wonderful Counselor, prince of peace, etc. etc.

Author:	Groovy Dudette [ Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:
I think it's all a matter of opinion. For all those who do believe in God, I think it's more of a personal relationship with Him added upon thier individual testimony of Him. I have a personal relationship with God and it's not like anybody elses. Thinking about it, it's just like any other every day relationships. Two people may adore the same person equally, but each will have their own seperate personal relationship with that person. So really, in my opinion, it's not always our place to judge.

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