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Sicko
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Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  Sicko

Michael Moore has a new movie coming out. It was leaked onto the internet and I downloaded it. I have to say, a lot of the points made in that documentary are really strong. Like how the infant mortality rate in the United States is higher than many other developed countries and how the life expectancy is higher in Canada and the UK than the United States. And both Canada and the UK have free and universal healthcare. In fact, the United States is the only developed nation that does not offer free and universal healthcare.

So, do you think the United States should change the healthcare system and adopt a universal healthcare system?

Author:  StrongRad [ Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:19 am ]
Post subject: 

The biggest problem I have is that we'd be wasting tons of money treating people with problems that are their own fault (smokers, drinkers, overweight*, etc). The only way we could avoid wasting this money is for the government to tell people they couldn't smoke, drink, eat fast food, etc. The idea of "if you want us to take care of you, you can't do this, this, or this" doesn't really sit well with me. Then again, my insurance company is sort of doing that to me right now, anyway.

Rather than socialized medicine, I think someone needs to put American medicine back into the hands of doctors and take it away from the bean counters at my insurance company.

* Yes, I know "overweight" isn't always something a person can help, but putting down the Big Mac and getting off of the couch would help a lot of the overweight people in America.

Also, Sparkle, you shouldn't steal movies. You make Michael Moore sad. He was ranting about how people stealing his movie would somehow prevent the message from getting to the people (read: He hates rich people, but wants to be one himself).

Author:  DESTROY US ALL! [ Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:29 am ]
Post subject: 

StrongRad wrote:
putting down the Big Mac

You want me outta a job foo'?

I think Moore has hurt the credibility of this film by calling it Sicko. By the name I first got that it'd be a bash Bush film, and only that.

Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:33 am ]
Post subject: 

StrongRad wrote:
Also, Sparkle, you shouldn't steal movies. You make Michael Moore sad. He was ranting about how people stealing his movie would somehow prevent the message from getting to the people (read: He hates rich people, but wants to be one himself).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1904114401893858778&hl=en

Author:  StrongRad [ Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:34 am ]
Post subject: 

DESTROY US ALL! wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
putting down the Big Mac

You want me outta a job foo'?

I think Moore has hurt the credibility of this film by calling it Sicko. By the name I first got that it'd be a bash Bush film, and only that.

Oh, he's taking plenty of pot shots at the administration with the crap that came up over his going to Cuba to shoot part of it. He broke the law, but the problems he's getting are because Bush doesn't like him... Hahahaha. right.
But that'd be something for another thread.

Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

StrongRad wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that we'd be wasting tons of money treating people with problems that are their own fault (smokers, drinkers, overweight*, etc).


Okay, I honestly am offended by that.

Smoking and alcoholism are addictions. Smokers and alcoholics need help. Seeing as how my dad smokes and is trying to quit and Mom quit, I know how hard quitting is. I think it's really rude to just say, "it's all their fault, screw them", which is the general impression I'm getting. :/

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

Shippinator Mandy wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that we'd be wasting tons of money treating people with problems that are their own fault (smokers, drinkers, overweight*, etc).


Okay, I honestly am offended by that.

Smoking and alcoholism are addictions. Smokers and alcoholics need help. Seeing as how my dad smokes and is trying to quit and Mom quit, I know how hard quitting is. I think it's really rude to just say, "it's all their fault, screw them", which is the general impression I'm getting. :/
Well, it kinda is their fault Smokers and Alcoholics smoke/drink. I mean, unless a giant, walking, talking lit cigarette shoved itself into someones mouth and forced them to inhale, it was entirely their choice to take a drag on that first cigarette that caused the addiction.

Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't help them, but really, what can you do besides shove them in a room for 3 weeks, giving them three meals a day, and having them write out how they feel?

Author:  Dewy [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Also, in concurrence with Mandy, it's not always their fault. Peer pressure, my friend, have you heard of it? Also, if somebody is raised around it, it can simply become a normal part of life at a very young age. If a kids parents smoke, he may see that as something thats okay to do.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

Dewy wrote:
Also, in concurrence with Mandy, it's not always their fault. Peer pressure, my friend, have you heard of it? Also, if somebody is raised around it, it can simply become a normal part of life at a very young age. If a kids parents smoke, he may see that as something thats okay to do.

Smoking/drinking ARE addictions, but there is still a conscious decision to drink/smoke.
Peer pressure is the weakest cop-out possible. I still maintain that people who are addicted are victims of their own making.
Phillip Morris did not make me smoke, Jack Daniel did not make me drink. I did.
Addiction or not, someone made a decision to do something.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone can quit cold turkey (although it IS my personal belief that, if anyone truly wants to quit bad enough, they can), but they can all quit. There are plenty of support groups/treatments out there if someone really wants to quit.
Sorry if that offends people, but sometimes truth can be offensive.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

StrongRad wrote:
Dewy wrote:
Also, in concurrence with Mandy, it's not always their fault. Peer pressure, my friend, have you heard of it? Also, if somebody is raised around it, it can simply become a normal part of life at a very young age. If a kids parents smoke, he may see that as something thats okay to do.

Smoking/drinking ARE addictions, but there is still a conscious decision to drink/smoke.
Peer pressure is the weakest cop-out possible. I still maintain that people who are addicted are victims of their own making.
Phillip Morris did not make me smoke, Jack Daniel did not make me drink. I did.
Addiction or not, someone made a decision to do something.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone can quit cold turkey (although it IS my personal belief that, if anyone truly wants to quit bad enough, they can), but they can all quit. There are plenty of support groups/treatments out there if someone really wants to quit.
Sorry if that offends people, but sometimes truth can be offensive.
/thread.

Now, what was the subject of this thread? Sicko? Ohh yes, Sucks, its just Michael Moore complaining about Bush and his failed policies, compensating for something, etc etc, /thread.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
Now, what was the subject of this thread? Sicko? Ohh yes, Sucks, its just Michael Moore complaining about Bush and his failed policies, compensating for something, etc etc, /thread.

Image would have worked just fine, COLA. :-P

Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:04 am ]
Post subject: 

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
Ohh yes, Sucks, its just Michael Moore complaining about Bush and his failed policies, compensating for something, etc etc, /thread.
There's just like 30 seconds of that in reality.

Author:  putitinyourshoe [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:01 am ]
Post subject: 

i'd like to see it out of curiosity and out of my personal inclination towards socialized medicine/socialism in general. but i do totally understand Sree's point about everyone bearing the burden of people's stupid health decisions.
i suppose i support his attemt at health reform but know honestly that socialized medicine will never work in the US. i'll probably just move to Sweden when i'm older and eat off the sidewalk, get free healthcare, send any children to free Uni and pay 50% taxes. it's a tradeoff i'm willing to make.

Author:  PianoManGidley [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

Perhaps we should have free health care only to situations that are not a direct result of the individual's poor life choices. I don't see why someone run over by a bus shouldn't receive free health care just because Fatty McFat can't put down the fork.

Author:  Jenny [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm incredibly happy that Moore is poking at the health system because someone needs to. This is an EXTREMELY sore topic to me because of all the utter fudged-up CRAP (verymad!Jenny) I have had to deal with relating to my healthcare.

I have asthma and several mental disorders. I have to take medication for the asthma, but I chose not to use medicine any more for my OCD, clinical depression, and anxiety (and probably several other undiagnosed problems) and instead pursue other forms of treatment like therapy and meditation. Obviously meditation is free, but therapy is just as costly as medication.

Anyway, when I was out of school and my parents insurance was going to drop me (understandable), they decided that I would have to wait until August before they'd send out the paperwork so I could get medical aid from the state. At the time, I was going to therapy on a weekly basis and in this case therapy took the place of medicine. The insurance company wanted me to go 6 months without a way to pay for seeing a doctor. That's BS, because it's like basically cutting someone off their antipsychotics cold turkey for six months.

Also, I can't tell you how many times our insurance company has "lost" paperwork from doctors of mine that was sent to them to get them to pay for certain things. Actually, I can tell you. It's been every time we've sent them a doctor letter, so about 8 total. My mom quickly learned to scan the letters onto our computer first before sending out copies so that we are able to have a spare.

That's just retarded- and we're on a health plan for state employees, so you'd think that would be decent. It's sadly better than what all the other non-state workers I know have which is nothing. Many people out here in rural MN can't afford health insurance. We have a lot of fundraiser dinners for families who can't pay for treatment for their kids illnesses or injuries from accidents.

Yes, there is state aid available- Minnesota has one of the best systems for that, but it is so very minimal. Also, many people just don't know about it or can't get qualified.

I may not like Moore a whole lot, but the health service and that area of government deserves to be pestered to death by him. He can shred them all he likes for all I give a crap. I hate insurance companies and the whole damn healthcare system of the US with a passion. I'd also be one of those people moving to Sweden if I had the means.

Sorry for the huge essay x_x

Author:  StrongRad [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

Jenny, it sounds like your problem is related to insurance companies.
Most of the problems with the current system can be traced to the fact that health insurance companies are businesses, and as such must turn a profit to stay in business.
The problem I have is that the decisions for treatment are made by accountants and statisticians (possibly actuaries?) and not by doctors. While I see the reason they do this, they are businesses, after all, it seems counter to the idea of medicine, namely to fix whatever is wrong. We're told that, if insurance companies were to pay for what they don't deem necessary (but probably are necessary), insurance rates would be a lot higher. Honestly, I wouldn't care if it meant I could get the tests/procedures I need.

The real problem is that this would drive already unreasonable (for most people) insurance premiums even higher.

I don't trust the government to manage health care for people, though. Why, you ask? Years of frustration with the VA health care system for my grandfather and step-dad.

Author:  putitinyourshoe [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

sree, you hit the nail on the head with the VA. that whole thing is a mess. like i said, i don't think socialized medicine would fly here in the US exactly for reasons like that. and that american drug companies and insurance companies are turning enormous profits at the expense of people in need.

if it weren't for my mothers insurance (which comes with her job, and runs out the moment i am no longer a full-time student) i'd be scraping money like crazy to pay for my monthly asthma meds.

Author:  Jenny [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

putitinyourshoe wrote:
if it weren't for my mothers insurance (which comes with her job, and runs out the moment i am no longer a full-time student) i'd be scraping money like crazy to pay for my monthly asthma meds.

I know the feeling.

I guess I'd have to agree, too, in the idea that the US government should not be in control of the health system to the extent of some european countries and stuff simply because the fact is, USA = Capitalism. It would be like one BIG insurance company most likely if the government ran everything. Our government can't handle taking care of people any better than the businesses are doing because we're run like a business to begin with.

Author:  ChickenLeg [ Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:24 am ]
Post subject: 

Jenny wrote:
putitinyourshoe wrote:
if it weren't for my mothers insurance (which comes with her job, and runs out the moment i am no longer a full-time student) i'd be scraping money like crazy to pay for my monthly asthma meds.

I know the feeling.

I guess I'd have to agree, too, in the idea that the US government should not be in control of the health system to the extent of some european countries and stuff simply because the fact is, USA = Capitalism. It would be like one BIG insurance company most likely if the government ran everything. Our government can't handle taking care of people any better than the businesses are doing because we're run like a business to begin with.


So true. It's like no one cares for people's health in this country and would rather get as much money as possible. This country would rather have us work to death as a top priority than health. They would rather want us to forget any health problems we might have and continue working like it's nonexistent and we're imagining things. My family has the Illinois BC&BS insurance, and it's total crap. Due to this, it's a very rare and lucky occurence if I get to see a counselor every 2 weeks. But it's 3 weeks, and, in some cases, 4 between meetings. Now, I take advantage of the free services at school weekly (during the school year), but once I graduate, I'm on my own. I barely have any social skills, so I can barely talk about my problems to other people in real life and get reassurance, so this is pretty much bareboned coverage I'm getting.

I would like to have a Candian-like health care system here in America. No one would literally be searching bus stations for lost change/cash for health care, and I'm sure people would be living longer lives. At least do it in one state. Alaska, Wyoming, any of those barren states if the government is scared of losing money, since they wouldn't be losing much in low-populace states. Then, people would complain about moving and stuff, so they'd have to reinstate the previous mode.

In fact, America seems to do a terrible job in areas that people desperately need help in, because psychiatric problems don't seem to exist for some people. I'm fine about people's opinions, but when a country's government acts that way, it's just too much.

In short, America is paperwork and payperday when it comes to health care.

And if I made a ton of contradictions, please don't point them out please. It was more of a ramble than anything.

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