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My parents have been married for 19 years. They will not reach the milestone of their 20th anniversary because they decided that they want a divorce. This news neither surprises me nor makes me greatly sad, but my two younger sisters were devastated. Luckily, our sisterly unity is enough to keep us strong. I explained to my littlest sister that divorce is a fairly common thing, and that even though Mommy and Daddy won't be married anymore, we will still be a family. Personally, I do not oppose my parent's divorce. I believe that it is for the best and that we will all move on and be happy.

What are your thoughts on the subject? Is divorce a sin? An escape? The right thing to do, or is it circumstantial? What about your experiences with the subject? How does it effect the parents, and how does it effect the children? Discuss.

I'm afraid I'm not in a position to comment, seeing as how I do not know the circumstances of your parents' divorce. Without that context, I cannot offer any insight into whether it is the recognition of a relationship already broken beyond all repair, or if it is merely a concession to their current whims.

You see, my parents are also divorced. That was more than a quarter of a century ago, but within the past few years, I have discovered that I still bear scars from that fractured relationship, from the alienation I feel from my father, and from the bitterness I feel toward and from my mother. At the time, it nearly destroyed me as a person. I can still remember crying at night, thinking I had done something terrible to make God mad at me or something. Maybe you're at a stage in your life that it doesn't effect you as much (or maybe you're just really good at deflecting from it), but be careful not to discount how it will effect your sisters. Not only are they of different age, but such things can and often do effect people in different ways.

My own thoughts are this: divorce is a concession to the sinful nature of mankind. If people really did love and cherish each other - as they swore they would when they took their vows - then there would be no such thing, and no need for any such thing.

But I also realize that life is complicated. And people often do hurt each other, sometimes most profoundly those they claim to care about the most. What's more, it does happen that some spouses are just terrible people, and when they become abusive, unfaithful, or just plain out dangerous, then the other person has very little choice but to remove themselves from the situation. I could cite you a couple of cases that I personally know of where divorce really was the only option.

But I often feel that, in the vast majority of cases, it's just because the husband and wife are not truly committed to the vows they made. As such, they only keep them as long as they are convenient, and then chuck them out the window when they get tired of their spouse. This, to me, is atrocious, and I consider myself a victim of just such a relationship. A marriage is nothing less than a man and a woman swearing before God (or at least the state) that they are going to give 100% of themselves to their spouse, and divorce usually occurs because, once in it, they are not even willing to give a measly 25%.

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Divorce, in my opinion, and I'm probably not far off, is one of the most horrible, selfish, unloving things you can do to yourself and other's (besides suicide). What you're doing is thinking only of yourself, not of your spouse, not of your kid(s).

I'd like to help you, or give you advice Kweened, but like Dids said; not much we can do if we don't know the situation. But forget it, I'm not trying to drag a story out of you. If you wan't to keep it to yourself that's fine.

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What if you're being abused, either mentally or physically? Do you think it is selfish to want to get out of a bad relationship?

OH SHI- R&P!
GTFO's

I'd say, if it's truly a bad relationship: one involving mental or physical abuse, infidelity, etc. In such cases, particularly if the person doesn't see the need for help or that there's anything wrong about it, then the only option left is to get out of the relationship.

But if it's just a case where you wake up one morning and decide you don't like your spouse anymore, well, perhaps in such a case, you really need to consider your own attitude toward such a relationship. Most likely, you don't get what you want out of the relationship because you're unwilling to put into it what is required from you.

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My parents didn't get along either, but my father refused to get a divorce. He's always been very conscious about his public image and he was afraid of how a divorce would look to people. My mother stayed in the marriage because she had no marketable skills, and dad always told her if she left him he'd leave the country to avoid paying alimony or child support. I'll tell you all right now, divorce is preferable to growing up in a household where your parents hate each other but remain together. It only ended when my mother died of cancer; in her last months she said many times that this was her only way out.

I was talking to an Indian student the other day, who was saying that in India, divorce is all but unknown, especially amongst older couples. He also said that his grandparents hate each other and have hardly spoken in the past decade. They remain married because to them divorce is a taboo. Thus they remain trapped in a cold and barren relationship until one of them dies. Marriages like this are apparently extremely common in India. The young man kept saying he wished his grandparents would get divorced; he thinks they'd be happier apart. I knew just what he was talking about.

Divorce can take a terrible toll on the children, but so does a loveless marriage. All things being equal I think divorce is the better alternative.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

It really depends on the relationship. If the two have tried to mend whatever problems their relationship has had, and there is no progress being made, then perhaps, it is best to get a divorce.

I also feel that any abusive relationship should end immediately. I hate those, especially mental and emotional abuse, because some people never get over that.

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Ah, I see. If a context is needed, a context I shall provide.

Father was smitten with Mother when he first met her. How could he not be? She was beautiful, competent, and charming. After going on several dates, Father proposed. Mother was hesitant... she didn't know if she fully loved Father. In fact, she didn't think that the married life was for her. Mother had a college education... Father did not. He went to the Navy and then decided to not go to college in favor of working for his family's business. Mother had personal aspirations, and Father wanted to devote his life to being a loving husband and father. In the end, Mother was pressured into accepting Father's proposal.

There is something you should know about Mother. Her parents did not have the rosiest marriage. Grandfather frequently lost his temper with Grandmother, and Grandmother submissively put up with her family's disrespect. Mother had no respect for Grandmother and was repulsed by Grandfather's brutish behavior. Mother never wanted to marry a man, because she felt that a man could not appreciate her.

However, Mother did not trust her initial instinct. She married Father. She had three daughters with this Father, all the while resenting her married life. Father was always a wonderful husband: he catered to her every beck and call. He loved Mother unconditionally... I believe that he always will. It did not matter how good of a husband Father was to her, for the married life was not what she wanted.

Today, after 19 years, Father finally acknowledged that if he truly loved Mother, he had to let her go. Now Mother can finally find happiness. I shudder to think of what will happen to Father. My sisters will move on, but Father... poor Father.

My situation: I turn 18 next week, so custody issues are a moot point with me. My parents have yet to see any lawyers, but they agreed on this: Father would stay at the house with the children and Mother would move away somewhere. I will be attending a university this Fall where I will be living during the school year. During Summer, well, I'll just see. I feel like I cannot call this house I live in my home. I feel a whole new responsibility being pressed upon me... I am now to be the mother figure to my sisters, especially the littlest one. I must put selfishness behind me... which will be pretty difficult, for I am a selfish person. Still, I'm up for it. I will not cry over this, but I will not begrudge my sisters their tears. In fact, I discovered that I love my sisters more than I knew.

That's my story. It was a pleasure to write it out, because it helped clear my mind.

Mike:

Ah, but notice what the root of a loveless marriage seems to be: a couple who refuse to give all that is required of themselves into the relationship. So essentially, the root problem there is the exact same as that of divorce. It only looks different on the outside. Ultimately, in such cases, the best solution is for the two of them to realize their own selfishness and commit themselves, not just to maintaining the appearance, but to actually loving and cherishing each other. But alas, that takes work, and few people are willing to put work into a relationship anymore.

Kween:

If I may be so bold, it sounds to me like your mother doesn't realize how good a man she really had. I can't help but feel that she is going to find it VERY difficult to find what she really wants.

Also, I do want to say, I admire your courage. Even though you feel this new role has been shoved onto you, still, you are willing to set aside yourself for the sake of your sisters. I commend you. I know it won't be easy for you. I had a similar responsibility concerning my own brother.

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My parents divorced when I was a freshman. Same reason--they just didn't love one another anymore. I kinda saw it coming; they hadn't gone out together, just the two of them, or been intimate, in what seemed like a long time.

Just wish they had brought us into the picture before they threw the divorce thing at us. Freshman year was crappy enough, and it just went down the drain from there.

Now my dad's getting married again. I don't approve of it; his fiancée is a nice lady, but so is my mom. But of course, I didn't want to hurt my dad's feelings, and nothing I could say would change his mind since he already proposed and she said yes. Why couldn't he work things out with my mom? Or at least get help from my brother & me?

*sighs* I thought I was over it, but now with my dad getting remarried I'm starting to feel bad again. I don't want to go to his wedding.

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Ian, my parents' divorce was nearly 26 years ago. I don't think the scars ever fully heal. To this day, despite some things we've been through together, I still feel alienated from my dad. I know he loves me and cares about me, and is proud of me, but our relationship still seems distant.

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I strongly disagree... sometimes divorce is necessary, but you really should try not to get in a position where you need one in the first place. But if you've already made the big mistake, you can't just go back in time and undo it. You have to work with what you've got in the present, even if you shouldn't be in the situation that you're in.

Incidentally, my own parents' relationship is basically "over" right now, and they just haven't formally done a divorce... my stepdad loves my mother, but the reverse simply is not true. I hate to speak ill of her, because in all other respects she really is a nice person, but she's said and done some horrible things. Not physical abuse or anything, but the emotional abuse was pretty severe. For the most part they've put that behind him, but the relationship as such is still "over".

I've always been convinced that she just never gave things a proper chance, and she would take offense at everything in bizarre ways... as if everything he does is wrong, no matter what it is. I'm firmly convinced that it's her fault that it didn't work out, and even now she could save the relationship if only she thought there's something to save. But she doesn't feel that way about it, and there's nothing that can really be done about that. Regardless of how things "should" be, it's clear that they'd be happier apart.

The thing is that I and everybody else knew that the whole thing was going to end very badly when they got married (these two have had a long history)... if only they had listened.

- Kef

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I was raised in a pretty happy, loving household with no divorce. So I'm not sure how much my opinion counts. . .

My thoughts: I don't believe it's a sin, because I don't believe in the concept of sin. I think it's very much the right thing to do in certain circumstances, and in other circumstances perhaps things can be worked out to hold the marriage and the love together. But if there is no longer any love, there really is no point to a marriage.

Staying together to "save face" in terms of how others will view you is stupid. Staying together for the children? I don't know if that's a great idea either. I guess it depends on the specifics. I know two women in my life that have said they wished their parents had gotten divorced. One because the marriage was completely without love, and was more of a business arrangement. (They actually owned a business together, and that was the only thing they had in common, besides their daughter). The other because the fighting was terrible to witness as a child and the parents seemed to genuinely hate each other. Both of these friends have told me that they had wished their parents could have found other people to love and be happy with. They would have had more love-filled childhoods had this happened.

Who knows if that would have been the actual outcome, but I can't imagine what it must be like to live in a house for 18 years, and then come out of it with "I wish my parents had gotten divorced. I wish I could have seen them happy with other people."

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

I got news for you people: divorce doesn't end the fighting. It usually keeps going, but in much more subtle, and in some ways more damaging ways. I know. After my mom and dad divorced, they didn't have loud arguments anymore. But for years, I had to put up with listening to them gripe about each other (more Mom griping about Dad than the other way around). Instead of taking their frustrations out on each other, they heaped them all on me, a 12 year old boy at the time, leaving me pretty much hating my father and distrusting my mother for the rest of my teen years.

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Naturally. In a general sense that's the problem with any flawed relationship. The devil, as always, is in the details.



My parents did that while they were married. They screamed at each other and they griped about each other to my siblings and myself. If they'd been divorced I would've had a little more peace. There are no pat answers here; what would've worked in my case might not have worked in yours, and vice versa.

I do think it is inherent on the children of all bad and broken marriages to do their utmost not to repeat their parents' mistakes. Don't assume that you're smarter than your parents or that you know more than they did, but try to recognize what they did wrong and understand why they acted the way they did. From my parents' bad example I learned to avoid speaking or judging in anger, for instance. I've made it a priority in my life to weigh the facts carefully in any situation, including relationships. Being raised in a bad marriage is painful, but it's imperative to look beyond that. Don't let it tear you down.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

My parents are going through a divorce, but there isn't that much hostility between me and them. We all still live in the same house, and most of the fighting has ended a few years ago. I see both of them equally enough that there's no resentment(yet).

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All divorce is the result of selfishness on the part of either one or both partners. I'm convinced that any two people on the planet could be happily married, if they were to give themselves 100% to their partner, and value their partner's happiness and comfort above their own.

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And that's why I think my sister and Wally will have a happy marriage.

My parents, however, seem to have stayed married out of convenience. I'm not sure why my dad and his first wife divorced, or why my mom and her first husband did. Never met the latter, but I do see my dad's ex from time to time, mainly at family gatherings. My mom says she divorced because her husband was greedy, yet my mom seems more of the greedy type. She's the one who gripes about both her husbands, while my dad simply jokes about his current wife. When my mom and dad got married, they had care of my older half-sisters, but my mom wanted nothing to do with them, since they weren't hers, and made crazy rules. Now that I think about it, no wonder the older two began lashing out. The third, fortunately, was young enough to not have the teen hormones when I came. That's when, strangely, my mom greatly lightened up on rules.

The point is that while I don't know the reasons of my dad's first marriage, my mom is just selfish in both of them. However, I believe they both don't want to go through another divorce due to their age and financial status. Personally, it's like they're spiritually divorced, since they haven't been at all truly intimate in all my memory of them.

Kind of a ramble post.

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I'm sorry that I didn't say anything about abusive relationships or unfaithfullness. In both cases I beleive it is ok, however, if other means are available they should be tried out.


I agree with Dids on both points. If I may, your Mother doesn't know what she had, and she's being very selfish. Also, I believe that love is a choice, something that needs to be worked at. And you are being very, very couragous in becoming the mother figure.

Kef:
Like I said, love is something you work at, a choice. If you've made a mistake you can't go back and fix it, but you can't just walk away and pretend it didn't happen either, thats even worse.
In your situation you can't do anything but pray, and maybe talk to your mother (but from your description it deesn't sound like she'll listen). I'll be praying too.

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Thank you all for your kind words. I must, however, say some things about my mom in her defense. She is a good person who loves me and my sisters very much. It may sound strange, but I'm happy for her. She can finally begin to live the life she always wanted. She's an ambitious person, and she simply cannot be a homemaker any more. I know that some people are capable of juggling a personal life and a family life, but my mom has some OCD issues. She spent the last 19 years obsessively cleaning, decorating the house, and managing the family finances. She was miserable, and she could have been spending her energy on things that did justice to her mind. In other words, my mom could have lived a great life had she never married. Of course, she is in her mid-forties, and she still has quite a bit of her life ahead of her.

I'm also happy for my dad. Yes, he had his heart broken. However, hearts can be healed. My dad is now free to marry another woman, one who will love him properly. I've already talked with him about this, and although no woman could ever replace my mom in his heart, he said that he will indeed eventually re-marry. He was simply not meant to be alone. The goal is to marry a family woman... a kind, nurturing woman who was actually meant for the married life.

I like to think of it this way: there are cats, and there are dogs. Both are equally good animals. However, it is not a good idea for a cat and a dog to marry. My mom is a cat: independent. My dad is a dog: loyal. They had some good years, just like sometimes a cat and a dog can get along. However, at the end of the day, they were still not meant to be together.

Although there is grief in my heart, I feel that this divorce is a good thing. I see it as a second chance for both of my parents. I also believe that my family is strong enough to get through this. The love is still there. My parents told us that they are going to be nice to each other... in fact, although I know that their marriage is damaged beyond repair, I believe that they will always hold love for each other. This makes me feel very fortunate, even optimistic. My sisters will get through this.

This thread as helped me a great deal. Writing these things out has helped me to sort my thoughts, and reading about everyone's opinions and experiences has helped me to cope. However, all this makes me wonder. The divorce rate in America is pretty high... is there anything we can do about this? It's sort of our responsibility as the human race to work together to solve this sort of problem. Any ideas? I can't think of any right now, except that it's always good to be 100% certain before entering a marriage. It is a lifetime vow, after all.

So much to quote and respond to in this thread:


I saw my uncle and ex-aunt do the same thing to my cousin. I actually witnessed my dad's brother say this to his daughter:
"What's mommy?" to which she responded in 4-year-old brainwashed fashion:
"A Bi***!"
In all honesty, her mother is a bi***, but I really hated that my uncle did that to his daughter. Parents should not put the kids in the middle of their fights. There is no excuse for that. I don't associate with my dad's side of the family so much because of stuff like that.


Picking any two random people, I honestly think most couples would end up completely miserable and unhappy, even despite their best efforts.
In a marriage, I don't think we should put the happiness of our partner before our own. Put them on equal footing, yes. But if you are 100% unhappy and uncomfortable while you are trying to make another person happy, what's the point of that? Every marriage needs to allow for a certain amount of selfishness because that is human nature. If you've made your best effort to make things better, and you are still unhappy, just get out.


I've heard this before from other people, and my instincts tell me to disagree with it. You cannot force yourself to love somebody that you just don't love.


Practically speaking, it's not really a lifetime vow anymore, as far as this society is concerned.

There is no way to be 100% certain before entering a marriage, but I've noticed a lot of people rush into marriage before they really understand what it means. They don't understand what it will actually mean to commit yourself to one person forever. I think there needs to be a campaign to STOP people from getting married before they are ready. I don't know how that would work, but I think if people put more thought into the act of getting married and what it means, there wouldn't be so much divorce.

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

But you've made vows, made promises. Shouldn't those be upheld? And if someone really loves someone, shouldn't they be willing to sacrifice for that person? What you say is good in a dating relationship, but not in marrige, when the deed is already done.

Alot of our culture tells us that love is a first sight thing, a firebomb of extreme proportions. I beleive this, but only to a point. This is the first love, what C.S. Lewis called being "in love", and at this point it's easy to love selflessly because the feeling is so strong, so passionate.
But after this happens it goes away, the feeling leaves, and you are no longer "in love". At this point many couples (weather or not they have married) decide that that person wasn't really right for them, because the feeling didn't stay. This is where the choice comes in, the choice to throw in the towel and quit, or press on and CHOOSE to love that person despite the fact that you no longer "feel" anything. C.S Lewis called this "the deeper love". It's quiet, but longer lasting, formed from a unity. To describe it in other terms would be like the thrill you get from seeing an absolutly beautiful place, but not feeling the same when you go to live their, instead, you feel a quieter, stronger interest in it.
So love is a choice between giving up or letting the feeling go. I think that if you choose to love you'll love all the deeper.


In my personal opinion, the answer is God. The only one who can help us not be selfish pigs.


Your right, and I believe pre-marrige counciling should be taken before all marriges.

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Good for you! I'm an atheist; what do I do?

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

Aie, I knew I shouldn't have put that in.

Get to god. That's my suggestion.

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I disagree 100%, but I won't start a fight over it... That's not even what this thread is about anyway. It is about the following subject: DIVORCE. And, in attempt to make this post free of spam, I'll give you my two cents about it.

I'm not going to pretend that divorce isn't a nasty thing sometimes. It is. Especially when you get all the litigation into it. But in my opinion, it's a necessary evil. Maybe not even an evil– I'd call it more of a mess. Various people, some of whom I respect a great deal, have stated in this thread that divorce is always a horribly selfish thing to do, that it will invariably damage children, and that instead they should just try harder (sorry if it seems I'm making an assumption with that last one, but that's what you guys have said basically boils down to). To me, this reveals a great deal of ignorance. Sometimes no matter how hard people try, they simply can't get along. Their personalities are just not able to work together. And as Amorican said, even if you do try to do the best you can in a relationship, if you yourself are uncomfortable in it, it might not be healthy to stay in it! And for kids, divorce CAN be a hard thing. No lie. But to say that it ALWAYS is ain't the best thing to say. In fact, in most cases, to say that something ALWAYS is something else is usually incorrect and maybe even a sign of bigotry. If their parents are in an unhappy marriage, that could hurt the kids more than if they divorced.

That said, it would be nice if sometimes people wouldn't rush into marriage without knowing what they're doing. Relationships like that usually end up skewed, and if people could just wait a while to keep themselves from doing something that might ruin their lives it would be nice. Especially since it'll save those people the trouble of having to divorce later.

I think I was all over the place there, but as a summary, I'll just remind you that things aren't always black and white. Sometimes they're gray. Or puce.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

Off-topic here, but that was hilarious. True, but hilarious. The last part, I mean.

Anyway. Yes, divorce is sometimes the right thing...but not always. Especially when a couple has children--they're just forgetting about how much it'll harm their kids, and thinking solely about themselves. Sometimes, we have to make sacrifices.

However, there are cases where, unfortunately, divorce is the only option. An abusive spouse, for example--if there is a real threat to the abused person and/or their children, they should get out. A lot of the time, though, they do it for selfish reasons, and that's not really right.

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Not all couples with children that choose to get a divorce are uncaring of the ramifications a divorce will have on their children. I know that when my parents split about a decade ago, they thought long and hard about all the angles, including how it would affect all four of us kids, the oldest of which (my older sister) being only about 15 at the time (I was 12, with a younger brother at 5 and a younger sister at 3).

And netzen--while I respect your strong, heart-felt zeal for your religion, keep in mind that there are plenty of people not of your religion who aren't "selfish pigs," so it's an unfair assessment to claim that your line of beliefs is the only path to altruism. I'd contest for you to tell that to any atheistic scientist who struggles to find ways to improve technology and medicine for the benefit of mankind and/or the earth as a whole.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Ummm...he *did* say it was his personal opinion...nothing to get worked up over...

anyway, I generally agree with a majority of what has already been mentioned. I agree that divorce is fed off of greed by one or both the spouces, but at the same time divorce can be the right solution depending on what exactly the situation is and where thier personal relationship stands.

If you think about it, when observing a divorce, is it really our place to judge them? Just a thought...

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Oh STEVEN! I think this may finally be it you guys! After 200 hundred emails I'm finally gonna get to make out with da-da-da DEAR HOMESTAR?!

Wow. My parents, like, never fight, and they've been together for 13 years.
Sorry to anyone who has to go through this crap, though.

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I'm not against divorce, but I think its a big choice, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Did your parents see a marriage counselar first?

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