Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

1. I know I don't post much in this section, but meh...
2. Please yell at me if this is ABPD.
3. What are your views on good works in connection to salvation?

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I think that people who do "good deeds" are people who would do them regardless of what their religion might tell them. From what I've seen, the people who are upstanding, kind, and moral are so because that's how they are, not because their religion influenced them to be as such, and they come from every religion and philosophy, including Atheism/Secular Humanism. This is because at the same time, there are plenty of people who are complete jerks (and other stronger words I'll refrain from using here) that come from every religion/philosophy, and these people just use their belief system as justification for their own bad attitudes. Religion itself seems to play a neutral part, since it can be interpreted to justify just about anything, good or bad.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

My beliefs: Salvation is attained through being saved, not good works. You will be punished/rewarded for good/bad works, but in the end it's whether you obtained salvation that tells if where you will spend eternity.

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I hate to say it, but that's what I call a Dufflepud Saying (named after the Dufflepuds from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader). It's like saying, "That water sure is wet!" or "When a man's hungry, what he really needs is some food."

Salvation is obtained entirely through the cross of Jesus Christ. It is his work alone that can save us, not ours. Granted, he does call us to engage in good works after we have been made his people by faith, but those good works are for the benefit of others and do not earn us merit (and even they are accomplished by the Holy Spirit, meaning that ultimately we can't take credit for them anyway).

Salvation is accomplished...

by Christ alone - only his perfect sacrifice can grant us eternal life.

by grace alone - it is God's generosity and mercy in forgiving our sins and granting us the free gift of eternal life.

through faith alone - that is, only when we trust God's mercy can we obtain the free gift. And even faith is not something we do, but something God grants to us by the work of his Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.

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When a man's hungry, what he really needs is some AIRPLANE PARTS!!!!

Um, I mean, serious conversation. Carry on, everyone!

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

I know we've made these rounds already, but this really doesn't make any sense to me.

What if someone refuses this call to engage in good works after he has been made His person by faith?

What does it mean that these works are accomplished by the Holy Spirit? If I weed a widow's garden, the Holy Spirit really did it and not me?

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Salvation is not achieved through good works, however, one cannot be saved without them.

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A person who trusts God is going to do what God tells them. Period. A person who refuses to obey God is simply proving that they are not one of his to start with.

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If you do good deeds, you are a good person, but that won't get you to heaven. Only believing in , worshiping, and following Jesus Christ can save you. But if you really are a true Christian, then you should strive to be like Jesus, and Jesus was constantly doing good works.

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You're playing Team Fortess 2... you are a heavy and you have two medics... you are taking out everone on the other team so easy... another medic aproaches... THEN HE TURNS INTO A SPY AND STABS YOU IN THE SPINE!
SPY PWNS ALL!

Circular logic.

If all you need is to be saved by grace, then why does not doing good works cancel that out?

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Well, maybe some are somehow unable to do good works. Like, if someone gets baptized and becomes a believer, but then unexpectedly dies, gets really sick, has no money, or whatever, maybe he just doesn't get a chance to do anything. I mean, he's not going to hell, is he?

My opinion is that God doesn't really want you to worry about whether you will be saved or not, if you are baptized and believe he has saved you. Refusing to do good works, in a way, proves that your faith is weak, but it's not what actually saves you. It's an effect of being saved, because I think true faith inspires those good works.

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I don't see the circular reasoning behind it. And it's pretty much what the Scriptures say anyway.

Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 3:21-31, Romans 6:1-11, Galatians 2:15-31.

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It doesn't.

As I understand it, the works are a "symptom" of salvation, not a cause of it.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

A better term might be "evidence", whereas the lack of good works would be a "symptom" of a lack of faith.

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So... if you don't have faith then you can't do good things?

Depends on what you mean by "good", Ju Ju. I have no doubt that even an atheist can feed a homeless child. But the question is whether such good works merit salvation by God, and the answer to that is no. NO ONE is saved on account of works, but only by faith in Jesus Christ.

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Oh, sorry, i'd read your post wrong. My bad, nevermind what i was saying.

So being saved isn't a sure thing, right? I mean, if you are saved and then 20 years later start molesting kids, you weren't really saved 20 years ago.

Am I understanding right?

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Unlike most modern American Christians, I am not of the opinion that salvation is something that cannot be lost. "Once saved, always saved" is not a doctrine taught by the Bible, but is one inferred by certain schools of theology.

If a person, after years of being a believer, decides to renounce his allegiance to God and start committing abominable sins against him, why can't we say he lost it? I seem to remember St. Paul in 1 Corinthians commending such a person to Satan. I also remember him welcoming that same person back into the fold after God's grace had brought him to repentance.

I think of it like this: sheep go astray on their own, and get lost on their own. But when they do, only the Good Shepherd can find them and return them to the flock.

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So we can lose salvation through our works.

Does that mean we have to change our lives before being saved? Say I'm a murderer... do I have stop murdering people before I can be saved?

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The Law always condemns evil. But only grace (Christ's sacrifice) can save. Our works can condemn us, but they cannot save us. That truth is one that is addressed numerous times in the Scriptures.

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You didn't answer my question.

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Actually, if you reread my post, I did. A person who continues to deliberately violate God's Law (in this case, the Fifth Commandment) also continues to receive condemnation from that Law.

But even if a person stopped murdering, the forgiveness they need for that sin can only be made available to them through Christ's sacrifice.

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Right, forgiveness is only available through Christ.

But if we don't stop murdering (act), then that forgiveness won't come.

Right?

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That's a nice little semantic trick there, Lahi, but the problem is this: is "stopping" something the same as acting? Not quite.

The problem is, however, if you pay attention to the last statement there, stopping in itself accomplishes nothing. Only Christ's mercy - nothing else at all - can actually accomplish the salvation. Continuing, however, causes the person to lose that forgiveness again (or more precisely, brings guilt and condemnation for the crimes committed after forgiveness is granted). So it is not as if the "stopping" actually contributes to the salvation, but certainly "not stopping" undoes all the benefits.

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Okay.

So I'm a murderer. I kill a 12 year old kid, go to the local priest, and declare myself for Jesus. Am I saved if I

A.) Never kill again

or

B.) Kill someone 20 minutes later

or

C.) I am saved at that point, no matter what comes next.

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I have no reason to think that, at the time of his confession and absolution, that the murderer is not forgiven at that time.

However, further murder will most certainly bring further guilt and place him back in an unforgiven state before God. But how that works out in God's foreknowledge of the man's actions, or his omniscient insight into the sincerity of the man's confession is really up to him. I can only answer on his behalf when he has clearly stated himself which is the case.

Personally, I don't think it's a matter of him losing the forgiveness of the sins he confesses and are absolved, but rather that he is heaping further guilt upon himself by committing further crimes.

Unless I have good reason to doubt the confession (for example, if the murderer states his intent to murder someone else later), then there is no reason to suppose that the absolution is not real at the time.

As I said before, I do not believe the assumption of "Once saved always saved" to be a true teaching of Scripture.

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you don't need "salvation." just be good, you're fine.

That's pretty much what everyone LIKES to think. But if you expect to convince a professional theologian, you'll have to do much better.

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If you want to convince an atheist that what the professional theologian says has any relevance whatsoever, you'll have to do even better than that.

Of course, that's just me being a jerk, since that really doesn't have much to do with the actual topic of this thread, but I can't resist being like that sometimes... >_>

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?