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Compulsory Education
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12085		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Compulsory Education
I feel the same way. Except what's screwing with mine is the God forsaken thing called an "education" that started yesterday. I swear, if people thought of me as a human being and not a minor I wouldn't be there except by my own free will.

Edit: Since this was split this is a thread on compulsory ed-you-macation. Enjoy!
Author:  The Noid [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
lowel, people in school during August. Getting out in June and going back in September when it's cooler is more preferrable, I think.
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wesstarrunner wrote:
I feel the same way. Except what's screwing with mine is the God forsaken thing called an "education" that started yesterday. I swear, if people thought of me as a human being and not a minor I wouldn't be there except by my own free will.


True. I go back on the 22nd. If they didn't try to make me feel like another nobody, and give me some sign that I am as much of a human being as they are, I would go.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I usually get out in May.

I hate school. Compulsory education sucks. And it messes with my sleep time and me time, which messes with my psychological wellbeing.
Author:  DS_Kid [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
I believe that I go back to school on the 20th, and get out on the 4th of June(this high school has a different schedule than others in the area).

I don't mind going to school, as it's pretty much just a job with less hours (I'll take six-and-a-half over eight/nine/ten :P), and we'll have a job for most of our lives.

I guess some things hit me hard in school, such as Algebra, because while I can comprehend it up-front, it slowly fades away into obscurity for things such as homework and tests. I can do the studying, stay afterschool and at lunch for help on the subjects with the teacher, and do all the homework, yet I somehow do poorly on quizzes and tests and finished the year with a C average.

Of course, in every other subject, I can finish the homework quickly, get A's and B's on quizzes and tests, and understand the material perfectly. I guess the math portion of my brain must've been left out of the blueprint. :P

Thankfully, I'm only taking English Honors this year, and while that means less time with people that I actually know, it also means easier classes which won't make me clutch my head on occasion.

EDIT: Eh, rants suck, especially when I write them when I'm not thinking straight. Edited. :P
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wesstarrunner wrote:
I usually get out in May.

I hate school. Compulsory education sucks. And it messes with my sleep time and me time, which messes with my psychological wellbeing.

Wait until you become an adult and have to have a job. Trust me, jobs typically allow much less freedom than school. At least with school, you get summers off. With jobs, you don't.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm taking Honors Algebra this year, and Latin. I don't know if I will have to quit one because of the workload, but you can bet it will be the Algebra if I do!

I'd like to say something though: I would rather spend 8-9 hours doing something at a job that I got to choose (You still get to choose your job right? We aren't an authoritarian state yet, right?) than do 5-6 hours of school work that I didn't get to choose to do. Especially since statistics show I'll only remember around 20% of it. It's all about liberty, and that, I have none.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I would rather spend 8-9 hours doing something at a job that I got to choose (You still get to choose your job right? We aren't an authoritarian state yet, right?)

To a certain degree, yes. But guess what! There are no guarantees to that. You might very well end up having to take whatever work you find available, despite wanting to do something else with your life. That's a reality an awful lot of people have to deal with. It was something I had to deal with earlier in my life, too. So while it may be true that the state doesn't determine what you do for a living, circumstances might just.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:36 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd rather have circumstances decide than money grubbing politicians.
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:52 am ]
Post subject: 
DON'T LET THE SYSTEM DESTROY YOU, MAN! THE MAN'S GOT IT OUT FOR YOU MAN! DAMN THE MAN, MAN!

Seriously, it's not that bad. I assure you, you'll make it through alive. Unless someone goes crazy at your school and starts shooting, which apparently is not all that uncommon.

Honestly, if school is your worst problem, then be thankful for that.
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Simon Zeno wrote:
Honestly, if school is your worst problem, then be thankful for that.


For some reason, I find this coming back to haunt me if I fail in my dream of becoming a cartoonist. Like, hysteria-inducing haunting.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Just because I have a relatively high amount of freedoms compared to some kids in other countries does not mean I should ignore the breaches in my freedoms that I do have.
Author:  The Experimental Film [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  LOL LONG POST
>:(

Wes, quit your b----ing and moaning. If you want to succeed in life, you graduate high school and then go to college. It's not the greatest system, but what kind of world would this be if we let any old person operate heavy machinery or play with chemicals? You need to learn stuff in order to do stuff.

Frankly, your "sleep time" and "me time" shouldn't and don't mean anything to anybody. I'm not a huge supporter of school myself, but I'd much rather wake up at 7:00 (much healthier for you than waking up later) and hang out with my peers for six hours, five days a week, than wake up at 1:00 every day and sit around at home jacking off.

Also six to eight hours out of your day really don't affect your "psychological wellbeing", no matter how much you might hope they do. We have 24 hours in a day, for God's sake. If you REALLY REALLY NEED your "me time", then wake up a little earlier/go to bed a little later. That's all.

Finally, the fact that a truant officer may come around if you don't attend school has little to do with liberty, although it is true that theoretically you shouldn't have to go to school if you don't want to. However, you said you would rather be working anyway -- do you really want to end up collecting garbage or something for a living instead of doing something that could actually earn you a lot of money? I plan to graduate high school and then attend a university for four years or so (horray for dorms) and then try to get a job at some respectable newspaper or magazine. Sure I might not enjoy the process, but if I drop out of high school (which you are legally allowed to do at some point), I'm not going to get into college, and if I don't go to college, it's not likely that I'll be able to get a job that I want. You say you want to choose your job... if you hate school so much, though, I just hope your ideal choice involves the phrase "do you want fries with that?".
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Wesstarrunner wrote:
Just because I have a relatively high amount of freedoms compared to some kids in other countries does not mean I should ignore the breaches in my freedoms that I do have.
Trust me, kid: school isn't anywhere near as much of a "breech of freedom" as work is. Wait until you get out into the real world and have to make your own living, instead of having taxpayers foot the bill for you education, or having mom and dad foot the bills for your food, clothing, and shelter. Honestly, if you think school is such a "breech of freedom," then move out on your own and make your own living. You want adult freedom? Then live like one of us and earn your way. Until then, be thankful for what you do have.

Oh, and if you want to know what a real "breech of freedom" is, go back to slave times, when the African slaves were denied the right to an education. Or in 1984, in which the government's favored way of keeping the masses oppressed was by depriving them an adequate education.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I understand freedom comes with responsibility. And I'm not against education, I'm against being forced to have one in a way that may or may not be right for me. Natural human curiosity ensures we need an education, until the style of education that we currently have suppresses curiosity in exchange for force feeding (which only works mainly in the short term, ala, standardized tests). We begin to think of learning, not as an enjoyable experience, but as a chore. It's not supposed to be that way.

EDIT:
The Experimental Film wrote:
>:(

Wes, quit your b----ing and moaning. If you want to succeed in life, you graduate high school and then go to college. It's not the greatest system, but what kind of world would this be if we let any old person operate heavy machinery or play with chemicals? You need to learn stuff in order to do stuff.

Frankly, your "sleep time" and "me time" shouldn't and don't mean anything to anybody. I'm not a huge supporter of school myself, but I'd much rather wake up at 7:00 (much healthier for you than waking up later) and hang out with my peers for six hours, five days a week, than wake up at 1:00 every day and sit around at home jacking off.

Also six to eight hours out of your day really don't affect your "psychological wellbeing", no matter how much you might hope they do. We have 24 hours in a day, for God's sake. If you REALLY REALLY NEED your "me time", then wake up a little earlier/go to bed a little later. That's all.

Finally, the fact that a truant officer may come around if you don't attend school has little to do with liberty, although it is true that theoretically you shouldn't have to go to school if you don't want to. However, you said you would rather be working anyway -- do you really want to end up collecting garbage or something for a living instead of doing something that could actually earn you a lot of money? I plan to graduate high school and then attend a university for four years or so (horray for dorms) and then try to get a job at some respectable newspaper or magazine. Sure I might not enjoy the process, but if I drop out of high school (which you are legally allowed to do at some point), I'm not going to get into college, and if I don't go to college, it's not likely that I'll be able to get a job that I want. You say you want to choose your job... if you hate school so much, though, I just hope your ideal choice involves the phrase "do you want fries with that?".

Or I could drop out, get a GED, and go to college a year earlier. I find it strange that you can't just tolerate my opinions.
Author:  The Experimental Film [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  bah
Wesstarrunner wrote:
I understand freedom comes with responsibility. And I'm not against education, I'm against being forced to have one in a way that may or may not be right for me. Natural human curiosity ensures we need an education, until the style of education that we currently have suppresses curiosity in exchange for force feeding (which only works mainly in the short term, ala, standardized tests). We begin to think of learning, not as an enjoyable experience, but as a chore. It's not supposed to be that way.

Curiosity is irrelevant, we have to learn what we need to know just as much, if not more, than what we want to know.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Curiosity will drive us to learn things that we do need to know.
Author:  The Experimental Film [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  ...
What is it, exactly, that you want to do as a career?
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:07 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd like to be politician or a philosopher.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Here's what I have to say about that:

Complaining about the style of education is one thing. I would agree, to some extent, that modern education does need some drastic improvement to enhance the learning process. Instead of finding new and innovative ways to teach students, the education process these days is more concerned with lowering standards so as to make education accessible, even to people who have no inclination to work for it. But with overcrowded classrooms and substandard teacher preparation (not to mention the difficulty of keeping good teachers due to stress), it's hard to enforce the standards we do have, much less encourage newer more effective innovations in the education process.

But Wes, you weren't complaining about the process earlier. You were complaining about the fact that education is required at your age. There is a difference.

But I have a philosophy of society that may not be terribly popular today, but is in fact one of the presumptions of colonial times, even if not expressed adequately amidst our founding fathers' expositions on human freedom. It is this: that citizens have not only rights within their societies, but also responsibilities. Education, in part, is there to help you fulfill your responsibilities as a citizen, and therefore it would be inappropriate for someone to decry their rights within our society if they simultaneously refuse to live up to their obligations.

For example: if you wish to drive, you must follow the rules of the road. And in order to follow them, you must know them. In the same way, if a person wants to live within our society, they must understand our society and learn to operate by its laws.

Remember, Wes, in Romans 13, St. Paul tells Christians that they are to obey the laws of their society. Getting an education is one of those laws of our society. Therefore, obedience to that law is obedience to Christ.
Author:  Cleverdan [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:15 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm going to join this debate just for the heck of it. And also, this isn't directed at any one person, just putting it out there.

Kids(including myself) are always going to hate school. I also think that they are perfectly entitled to. We haven't known the terror of jobs or collages yet. So far schools have been one of the hardest things on us emotionally, physically, and especially mentally. There's the social life to deal with, plus the hours of school work and evil teachers. Yes, I'm sure jobs are harder, but most of us haven't experienced these things firsthand, and therefore, we can't just say: "Yes, our school days have been a serious pain in the arse, but obviously our careers will be harder, so, oh well."

...

Well, we can't say it unless we're mocking it. ;)
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, I tell you what: wait until you're in school full time AND working a job. I had to do that during college. And frankly, if I had known what I was getting into (or had a better option after the fact), I never would have went to work for the Sandy Springs Office Depot. WORST JOB I EVER HAD!

But I really learned to love education at that time. Not only was my course of study interesting (The Humanities), but because I had to pay for it myself, I really learned to appreciate its value.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Let me direct you people to a place that has become my home (other than this forum) on the internet: http://www.school-survival.net/index.php This is the place I find many arguments against compulsory schooling.

Also Didy I want to tell you what I consider myself: A Christian Libertarian. I don't believe in submitting to my government. I believe in questioning it, and I believe that the Bible teaches it. Many people cite that passage that you cited to try to counter this school of thought, but there are many passages (on that Wikipedia page) that seem to back up this school of thought either directly or indirectly. Also, the Bible is full of inconsistencies, for it was written by man, not God.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Correction, Wes: it was written by men chosen by him as his authorized representatives. As such, when they speak on his behalf - say, for example, when instructing Christians on how to live as God's people - they are speaking for God. They may have been imperfect themselves, but this in and of itself does not diminish their authority as God's messengers, nor does it diminish the message itself.

But as far as that goes, I would contend that there is only one exception to the Romans 13 passage, and that is in cases where the laws of the nation directly contradict the laws of God. For example, if a Roman emperor decrees that the citizens of the Empire worship him as though he were a God. Otherwise, Christians are expected to obey their governments so long as doing so does not directly conflict with their obedience to God. I would contend that, since compulsory education is not in direct disobedience to God - and furthermore, since education itself is both good and necessary for the development of good citizenship - then the proper Christian response to it would be submission.

By the way: I looked at the Bible links on the Wikipedia page. They are done horribly. Someone really needs to sort them out and make sure they link to actual Bible verses. But my suggestion to you is this: don't just look at their list of passages and jump to their conclusions. Study them yourself, and in the appropriate context. A few of the passages I looked at weren't even in reference to governments in general.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:02 am ]
Post subject: 
I still believe that they were imperfect and they may have influenced their work with their own opinions. Not to mention the fact that the Bible was compiled hundreds of years after the texts were written. The fact is that all of the texts we have may or may not be ones written by those chosen. Then we have the translations. Mr. King James was a witch fanatic. He despised them and influenced his translation of the Bible. I still view it as a more reliable text that at least doesn't have the corruption of modern society in it though.

And if the proper Christian response is submission. I think I would be a bad Christian with my opinions. I think it is a basic infraction on human rights we are made to go to school. I don't think it would be bad if free school was provided, but compulsory education is forced labor. Whether you like it or not.
Author:  Einoo T. Spork [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Wesstarrunner wrote:
I'd like to be politician or a philosopher.


Not real jobs.
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:18 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm not a real person. I'm [s]the Kool-Aid Man[/s]a figment of your imagination.

Seriously, I don't want to waste my time. I want to have an impact on society, and many of those people have made impacts on society throughout history.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Not to mention the fact that the Bible was compiled hundreds of years after the texts were written. The fact is that all of the texts we have may or may not be ones written by those chosen.

These statements are misleading. You might want to do some more research on text criticism, a discipline which I have numerous times commended in this forum. To simply dismiss the texts without doing adequate research into their validity is not good scholarship.

Here is text criticism in a nutshell: we have numerous copies of manuscripts that date fairly early (some as early as only a few decades after after apostolic times). Furthermore, we have enough copies, and a wide enough distribution of them that we can attest the validity of the texts we have available. Yes, there are variants, but many of them, with careful study, a good estimation of the original reading can be reasonably determined.

In short, while we may not be 100% certain of the original texts, we can be about 99.9% certain, which means that any doubt you intend to cast would have to be made within that 1/10 of a percent.

Quote:
Then we have the translations. Mr. King James was a witch fanatic. He despised them and influenced his translation of the Bible. I still view it as a more reliable text that at least doesn't have the corruption of modern society in it though.

That, my friend, is why you study Greek and Hebrew. Actually, KJV is not the most accurate translation, when comparing an English text to the available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. But if you wish to dispute a particular translation, you cannot do so based on your own presumptions about a particular translator's biases, but only on knowledge of the original languages and your own translation work.

In other words, it's not good enough just to say, "King James I was a witch hater, therefore you can dismiss his translation." No, you actually have to dig into the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and address the inaccuracies in the translation itself.

Oh, and incidentally, King James didn't do any translation work of his own. All he did was authorize the translation to be done, and if I remember correctly, he did that rather reluctantly anyway.

Quote:
I think it is a basic infraction on human rights we are made to go to school.

I disagree. I think education is important to your formation as a citizen. What's more, I'm pretty certain that men like Benjamin Franklin would agree with me. In which case, forsaking it would be paramount to failure to live up to your responsibilities as a citizen.

Quote:
I don't think it would be bad if free school was provided, but compulsory education is forced labor. Whether you like it or not.

"Forced labor"? You make it sound as if it were some Chinese sweat shop. It's not! It's 6 hours of being in a classroom and learning. Describing it as "forced labor" is an exaggeration at best.
Author:  StrongRad [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:25 am ]
Post subject: 
There's a quote that pretty much sums up my feelings on education:
If you think education is hard, try ignorance.

Seriously, try finding a job without some sort of education.
Here's where someone brings up some uneducated person that was just extremely lucky.
That person was just that, lucky.

Almost every person without an education is lucky to be working at WalMart or McDonalds.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Oh, and by the way: It is my understanding that if someone wishes to gain their education in an alternate manner - say, for example, private school or home schooling - most states allow for that. So it's not as if you're being forced to go to school instead of, say, learning at home, but rather that you have to have some kind of education. Of course, to insure that education is actually taking place, there have to be certain standards in place, so no, even these won't keep you completely free from learning obligations.
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