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http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12301		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Wesstarrunner [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:40 am ]
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One question: Why? I'm sorry if you already explained it, maybe you didn't explain it good enough for me to see it as an explanation, but why?
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:33 am ]
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What do you mean by "why?" It's common sense, Wes. Observe two human beings interacting sometime. Unless there is a common etiquette between them, they're liable to end up fighting. Now extend that to a whole community of human beings. Unless there is at least a core of commonly accepted behavior (and, by extension, a core of behavior considered unacceptable), there will be conflict. Laws are in place to minimize that conflict, and are usually themselves established based on a set of core values.

A good example would be this forum right here. We have rules to govern behavior. And these rules were established by those in charge to allow a certain amount of freedom, but also a certain amount of respect for people of differing value systems. Yes, there are some who do not like these rules. They either learn to peacefully accept them, or they leave, either voluntarily or forcibly. On the other hand, another community, one whose core values are different, will have entirely different rules.

The same is true with the laws of our nation. Whether you like it or not, there are some common core values that our society promotes. And our nation's laws are in place to reflect those core values. Freedom is one of them, but, as demonstrated by simple example, absolute freedom cannot exist in any place where two or more people are gathered. So our nation's laws are in place to protect certain freedoms - to maximize them, but at the same time, preserve the life, dignity, and resources of others.

Now, one of the core values of our society is that if you contribute resources to something, you have a voice in how it operates. In civil government, you have a vote. But in the case of something like a school, since those resources are provided by taxpayers like myself, those same taxpayers have the right to a voice in the operations of school boards. You don't. Why? Because you are benefiting from a service we are providing to you. If you don't like it, you can always leave. No one is forcing you to go.

But as for education itself, because uneducated and unskilled people tend to become a drain on productivity and resources, as a nation, we have decided that no one is to be uneducated or unskilled. Again, this is one of the core values of our society: if you are unwilling to care for yourself, you should not be allowed to become a drain on others. This is not to say that those who are unable should not be cared for, but it does mean that every single person who is able has a responsibility to contribute to the productivity of our society by becoming educated and skilled so that they can become part of the work force.

Now, I certainly hope this answers your question. If not, then, once again, I suggest you study up on Social Contract theory. I may not agree with everything about it, but it does certainly help to understand why it is that absolute freedom cannot exist where two or more people interact with one another. Once you've studied up, and have come to realize that I am right about that, I think you'll probably start to see the gaping holes in your somewhat anarchistic politic.
Author:  HHFOV [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:05 pm ]
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Oh snap, Wes, you want some ice for that burn?
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:09 pm ]
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Didymus wrote:
That part on school.


What if someone learns something (say, algebra) that won't be a part of his life at all? And why can't students at least have some say in how things are run, if they'll be the future products of a school system that definitely can do better when it comes to enjoyment and psychological well-being? In fact, why does the occurrence or chance for mental illness skyrocket when someone starts school?
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:29 pm ]
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You're talking about things that happen to you specifically in your life. Didy's talking about the general idea of why things are the way they are. It's two different things.

Yes, when society comes up with these ways of making things work, some people don't fit into it. It's not fair, but society, being a grouping of a jillion people, has to work for the most of those jillion people. You can see if you can work in an exception for people like you, but if the prevailing thought is that the exception would destabilize the system, it's not gonna happen.

I personally think there are ways to work in exceptions while enhancing the system, and making those a reality could end up being a focus of my life. But there's one thing I've learned: railing against society will get you nowhere. In fact, it'll just hold you back and make things much worse. The society you live in is your environment, and everything must adapt to its environment or die. Carve your own niche. If you aren't successful at that right-quick, you have to go with the flow until you can figure out something better that will actually work. Otherwise, you're gonna stagnate.
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:01 pm ]
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Inverse Tiger wrote:
You're talking about things that happen to you specifically in your life. Didy's talking about the general idea of why things are the way they are. It's two different things.


Not really. More of about a few million students that are labeled as "delinquents" just because they think differently and are persistent in that mindset which upsets authority figures since it causes "problems". Which it doesn't, really. It's a person's self, and while rules are good for promoting order and respect to others, like what Didy said, school can cross the line and be hypocritical. Students receive subtle disrespect for their humanity from their teacher despite being the same as the teacher, who demands obvious respect. What this teaches is that those higher on any ladder demands obvious respect to the point of subtly disrespecting others. Respect can be attainable for both parties, but only if both parties are equal. But sadly, authorities are either ignorant of or denying their disrespect.

Let's take, for instance, something that happened in 8th grade. Some student pushed a visitor (I'm thinking it was a parent) out of the way. Now, that's disrespectful, I know. The student shouldn't have done that. But it was more disrespectful for our vice-principal to yell at us after lunch (while waiting to be put into study hall) as it can cause negative psychological consequences for more than just one. What happened was one person did a dumb thing, and hundreds of students were yelled at for it.

Of course, disrespect was rampant in the school. But why? Because many students were being disrespected as human beings, whether subtly or not, and tried to mirror back the trauma to their authorities, subconsciously or not, which only perpetuates the cycle until either party is broken. And usually, it's the student, since the doctrine of authority being completely right soon becomes too much for one psyche and they simply give up.

Does any'o you guys think this should be merged into the Compulsory Education thread? ;)
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:11 pm ]
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Hehe, maybe it should.

But I still think you're talking about your individual experiences, and Didy's talking about how society organizes itself and creates rules for itself, which individual experiences, and even the experiences of millions when we're talking about many millions, don't have all that much impact on. You have a point with most of the things you say, but none of it changes how society makes up rules or how things just are. There may be millions who don't fit into the system, but there are millions more who do fit in, who the system is working for, who just don't care, or who have bigger problems.

Definitely, if you CAN change how things are, DO it. I'm not saying there aren't things that should be changed, and I agree with you that things like group punishment, talking down, etc, etc need to be changed. But if you can't change it, you really better start working with it, because that's the only way to anywhere from where you are.
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:19 pm ]
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Inverse Tiger wrote:
Hehe, maybe it should.


Yes. For the lulz.

I understand that everyone is different. [s]No two people are not on fire.[/s] But there are many similarities between people. There are millions of people with brown eyes, and it's certain that millions of others have the same exact problem about school.
Author:  bwave [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:05 pm ]
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ChickenLeg wrote:
I understand that everyone is different. [s]No two people are not on fire.[/s] But there are many similarities between people. There are millions of people with brown eyes, and it's certain that millions of others have the same exact problem about school.

I just dont see this problem being a major one. For example: I spent many years complaining that I would never use most of the subject I learned in school, but now, working as a lawn mower at a golf course, I employ each and every single one of them on a regular basis (Even italian and spanish). So saying that the system isnt doing anything for you doesnt makes sense if you dont know if it really is or isnt.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:26 pm ]
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Which goes right into one of my main criticisms of the current methods of education: it doesn't do a good job of tying things in with the real world. I think a lot of disgruntled students would be less so if they were allowed out of school's fake bubble enough to see how it all actually applies.

I like to keep tying this back into where the discussion came from, though: just because society implements something poorly doesn't mean you can necessarily go against it. Work to change it, but you'll most likely have to work with it even while working to change it. Because you have to be ready for the most likely outcome: you won't be successful in convincing all of society to change to meet your concerns.
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