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| Man is an animal too, my boy! http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12330 |
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| Author: | Angelgrl1029 [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Here is what's really cool: God (Yes THE God) said he created us in his own image. Not a monkey, not a giraffe, us! And He said we have higher authority over the angels of heaven and that we have the same power as Christ, The Manifitation of the Holy Spirit. That's what I belive and I'm sticking to it.(crap I knida went off topic there...) BONUS POINTS: The "My Boy" comes from that king in that Zelda cartoon. Am I correct?
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Rusty wrote: Here's what threw me off: Didymus wrote: But ultimately, what makes us human beings special is that God created us to be, Well, I'm still not sure how that disrupts the point about the higher intelligence and the basketball and stuff... it all made sense without the last paragraph. |
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| Author: | sci-fi greg [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Angelgrl1029 wrote: Here is what's really cool: God (Yes THE God) said he created us in his own image. Not a monkey, not a giraffe, us! And He said we have higher authority over the angels of heaven and that we have the same power as Christ, The Manifitation of the Holy Spirit. That's what I belive and I'm sticking to it.(crap I knida went off topic there...) Once again, religion is not an all encompassing answer to this question. I don't think we're better by nature, I think we're better by actions and the results of evolution. If you are the end of the evolutionary trail, you will be better than the rest. I would have qualified Cavemen as an animal because sometimes they dominated over animals, sometimes animals dominated them. Most of the time, they just followed a simple food chain and kept each other in check. We became more bold, Tore down rainforests, harnessed animals as pets or on a farm. We may still technically be animals, but that doesn't mean we're not better than the rest. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
ed 'lim' smilde wrote: Rusty wrote: Here's what threw me off: Didymus wrote: But ultimately, what makes us human beings special is that God created us to be, Well, I'm still not sure how that disrupts the point about the higher intelligence and the basketball and stuff... it all made sense without the last paragraph. Not really, his argument's really one-sided. He's talking about things we perceive as superior aspects. Basketball, okay. Just because we can play basketball doesn't mean we're better. Just because a cheetah can run 80 mph doesn't mean it's better. There are things an animal can do that we can't, and vice versa. |
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Rusty wrote: Basketball, okay. Just because we can play basketball doesn't mean we're better. That was not the whole point of the basketball thing. Do you even remember what that post way back there said? |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Rusty wrote: There are things an animal can do that we can't, and vice versa. Thats why animals are Varelse! |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Going by the UrbanDictionary definition of that word, I'd say we're pretty far from a full-scale war on animals... |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
IantheGecko wrote: Going by the UrbanDictionary definition of that word, I'd say we're pretty far from a full-scale war on animals... ![]() Lurk |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
ed 'lim' smilde wrote: Rusty wrote: Basketball, okay. Just because we can play basketball doesn't mean we're better. That was not the whole point of the basketball thing. Do you even remember what that post way back there said? Yeah, but I still stand by what I said. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
What you said essentially missed the entire point of the basketball analogy, too. I'm not speaking purely in terms of athletics, but in terms of all things distinctly human. A bird decorates his nest. So what? A bird cannot create something on the same level as Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. It's not even in the same category. Ants and bees can build hives. So what? Their construction methods haven't produced anything even remotely similar to the Parthenon or the Sears building. Heck, a cheetah can run 80mph. So what? Kevin Harvick can drive over 200mph (this is one example in which, what man lacks physically, he more than makes up for with ingenuity). Basically, all I have to do is look around and I see massive amounts of evidence that human beings are in fact unique among known creatures. Heck, the very computer I'm typing on is a testament to human ingenuity. The whole "But that doesn't count!" argument just smacks of pure denial. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
All those things are great on our standards. You're only speaking from a human level. I didn't miss the point, I got the point. I'm saying that those things are only "great" because we say they are. |
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
200 mph > 80 mph, no matter what you are. The point is since there isn't much an animal can do that a person couldn't do (physically, or with our technology), there aren't any ways that animals are better than humans; we could build a nest or go 80mph if we wanted to. In fact, the fact that we can call ourselves better is one way that we're better - animals can't even debate that for themselves. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Quote: All those things are great on our standards. You're only speaking from a human level. I didn't miss the point, I got the point. I'm saying that those things are only "great" because we say they are. As soon as a chicken or a sheep can present me a sound argument as to why we shouldn't consider them such, then I'll concede. Until then, I have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. |
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| Author: | Ju Ju Master [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
But being able to produce an argument is what we as humans consider great. It's not necessarily a universal greatness (if you understand what I'm saying) [/advocate] |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Ah, but there's the rub. If argumentation is dismissed, then this whole thread becomes pointless anyway. Remember that episode of Strong Bad Emails, "Coloring"? Marzipan teaches a kindergarten class where she basically does everything possible to keep any of the students from outshinging the others, to keep a level playing field between them all, even to the point of giving them crayons that don't color. All of which pretty much defeats the entire purpose of trying to teach any of them anything. It's a caricature, to be sure, of school systems that do away with standardized testing and such. But that's pretty much what this thread reminds me of: certain people don't want us to be able to say that human beings are unique among known creatures, and it seems the only way to keep the playing field level is to do away with any kind of criteria by which we can actually measure human performance over and against other creatures. It's like Marzipan giving her kindergarten crayons that don't work because she doesn't want any of them to outshine the others. To me, the very fact that we can have a conversation discussing this very topic demonstrates that we are unique among known creatures. Downplaying its significance doesn't strike me as a very sound rebuttal. It's like saying, "Money's only valuable because major corporations that provide us goods and services expect us to treat it as valuable." |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
ed 'lim' smilde wrote: 200 mph > 80 mph, no matter what you are. The point is since there isn't much an animal can do that a person couldn't do (physically, or with our technology), there aren't any ways that animals are better than humans; we could build a nest or go 80mph if we wanted to. In fact, the fact that we can call ourselves better is one way that we're better - animals can't even debate that for themselves. How. Do. You. Know. Look, we don't know everything about animals, but there are some things there can do and some things we can do, that others can't. There is no way you can dismiss the fact that we can't run 80 mph, that we can't fly, that we can't swim like any fish. What about those things? Or is being able to do things that we can do without the help of anything else, being able to do it naturally, just no matter at all? |
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| Author: | sci-fi greg [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Quote: Look, we don't know everything about animals, but there are some things there can do and some things we can do, that others can't. There is no way you can dismiss the fact that we can't run 80 mph, that we can't fly, that we can't swim like any fish. What about those things? Or is being able to do things that we can do without the help of anything else, being able to do it naturally, just no matter at all? I think Didy's thing about ingenuity actually answers this validly. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
What? How? |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
As stated above, it is a case in which what man may be lacking in physical prowess, he makes up for by ingenuity. A cheetah can run 80mph, but we can go faster. We win. And actually, we can fly. Just drop by your local airport sometime to see it in action. |
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Simulpost warning! Yay phpBB 3. Rusty wrote: Look, we don't know everything about animals, but there are some things there can do and some things we can do, that others can't. There is no way you can dismiss the fact that we can't run 80 mph, that we can't fly, that we can't swim like any fish. What about those things? Or is being able to do things that we can do without the help of anything else, being able to do it naturally, just no matter at all? We can do all those things, it's just that we need the technology. But animals don't have any technology to make them do the things that humans can do. The best they have is maybe a stick they use to cross a river. Consider this: If we had a battle to the death, and the last animal species left living on earth would win, who do you think it would be?
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| Author: | StrongRad [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Didymus wrote: As stated above, it is a case in which what man may be lacking in physical prowess, he makes up for by ingenuity. A cheetah can run 80mph, but we can go faster. We win. And actually, we can fly. Just drop by your local airport sometime to see it in action. Perhaps if I put Didymus' argument into the way I read it, it'll make sense those who don't agree. We aren't born with these abilities, we just create ways to do them. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
I like the way you state that, SR. Not only does it make sense of it, but it also puts it in a whole different light. An animal lives within the limitations imposed on it by its own nature. But mankind finds ways to overcome those limitations. In some ways, this make our flying even better than that of a bird's: because we didn't rely on nature to give it to us, but made it happen ourselves. I'm not saying that this justifies everything that humanity does - sometimes we're better off just accepting our limits and learning to live with them. But the fact we challenge those limits - and the ways we do so - I think does set us apart from other species in drastic ways. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
I guess the problem is that superiority is a subjective evaluation, and there is nobody but ourselves to make that evaluation. We're having a heck of a time defining what superiority is. Heck, we could define it in Darwinian terms, in which case we've got nothin' on beetles. In any case, I think whatever "superiority" we may have is rather meaningless anyway. We're probably not going to be able to travel to other habitable planets, so we'll go out when the planet can no longer sustain human life, if not sooner. We're ultimately as doomed as everything else. ('Course, I believe we should still make the most of what we do have.) I do maintain that, whether or not humans are "superior", humans are merely the most advanced animal, as I stated way back on page 1. We run on the same biological processes that they do. We have DNA, we have cells, we have brains, we have pancreases, just like animals. Give it a million years and maybe chimpanzees or dolphins will be on par with us, at least mentally. - Kef |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
furrykef wrote: In any case, I think whatever "superiority" we may have is rather meaningless anyway. We're probably not going to be able to travel to other habitable planets, so we'll go out when the planet can no longer sustain human life, if not sooner. We're ultimately as doomed as everything else. ('Course, I believe we should still make the most of what we do have.) I do maintain that, whether or not humans are "superior", humans are merely the most advanced animal, as I stated way back on page 1. We run on the same biological processes that they do. We have DNA, we have cells, we have brains, we have pancreases, just like animals. Give it a million years and maybe chimpanzees or dolphins will be on par with us, at least mentally. Yeah. With the flying thing: The fact that a bird can do that without the help of anything is "superior". The fact that a Cheetah can run that fast is "superior". They have better legs and arms, and we have better brains. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
But our better brains allow us to exceed them at what they do. Therefore, our ingenuity is to be preferred to their natural physical abilities. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
I dunno. A mutation of HIV could be all it takes to do in the entire human species. All the accomplishments of humanity could be trumped by something that isn't even alive. |
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| Author: | bwave [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Rusty wrote: Look, we don't know everything about animals, but there are some things there can do and some things we can do, that others can't. There is no way you can dismiss the fact that we can't run 80 mph, that we can't fly, that we can't swim like any fish. What about those things? Not only can we do those things, but we can do ALL of them, AND better. You see, a jaguar can do 80 miles per hour. But it cant swim deep. It cant fly. A fish can swim, but it cant run 80 MPH. It cant fly. A bird can fly. No 80 MPH. No swimming. A human can go 80 MPH in a car with no problem. We can hop on a plane, helicopter, whatever. Our subs can reach depths that most fish cant. See where I'm going with this? The difference between humans and animals is that humans are insinctively progressive creatures. And we are at the top of the food chain. Not by nature, but because we have worked for it. furrykef wrote: I dunno. A mutation of HIV could be all it takes to do in the entire human species. All the accomplishments of humanity could be trumped by something that isn't even alive. But similar could just as easily happen to animals. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
bwave wrote: Rusty wrote: Look, we don't know everything about animals, but there are some things there can do and some things we can do, that others can't. There is no way you can dismiss the fact that we can't run 80 mph, that we can't fly, that we can't swim like any fish. What about those things? Not only can we do those things, but we can do ALL of them, AND better. You see, a jaguar can do 80 miles per hour. But it cant swim deep. It cant fly. A fish can swim, but it cant run 80 MPH. It cant fly. A bird can fly. No 80 MPH. No swimming. A human can go 80 MPH in a car with no problem. We can hop on a plane, helicopter, whatever. Our subs can reach depths that most fish cant. See where I'm going with this? The difference between humans and animals is that humans are insinctively progressive creatures. And we are at the top of the food chain. Not by nature, but because we have worked for it. furrykef wrote: I dunno. A mutation of HIV could be all it takes to do in the entire human species. All the accomplishments of humanity could be trumped by something that isn't even alive. But similar could just as easily happen to animals. You're an idiot. I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read my post. THEY CAN DO THESE THINGS NATURALLY. We can't go underwater for long. We can't fly without refueling. We can't drive a car without charging, refueling, whatever. We CAN do all of these things, but we're limited. We're like an all around species, and the others are extremely good, better than us, at what they are meant to do, NATURALLY. So it evens out. |
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| Author: | bwave [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
Rusty wrote: You're an idiot. I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read my post. THEY CAN DO THESE THINGS NATURALLY. We can't go underwater for long. We can't fly without refueling. We can't drive a car without charging, refueling, whatever. We CAN do all of these things, but we're limited. We're like an all around species, and the others are extremely good, better than us, at what they are meant to do, NATURALLY. So it evens out. Re-read my post. Quite fankly, I dont care that they can do these things naturally. The fact is, we can do them. We fly faster, drive faster, swim deeper. Technology is our thing. Humanity is just a better team. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Man is an animal too, my boy! |
bwave wrote: Rusty wrote: You're an idiot. I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read my post. THEY CAN DO THESE THINGS NATURALLY. We can't go underwater for long. We can't fly without refueling. We can't drive a car without charging, refueling, whatever. We CAN do all of these things, but we're limited. We're like an all around species, and the others are extremely good, better than us, at what they are meant to do, NATURALLY. So it evens out. Re-read my post. Quite fankly, I dont care that they can do these things naturally. The fact is, we can do them. We fly faster, drive faster, swim deeper. Technology is our thing. Humanity is just a better team. Flying is their thing. Swimming is their thing. We can do it, but they can do it better. |
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