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Nudity
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12429		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  MikeMcG [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Nudity
This is something that's been bothering me lately. While wasting away productive hours at school playing with Wikipedia's random button I came across the article on the Voyager Golden Record. I decided to read it because I was always curious as to how aliens were supposed to decipher anything on the Golden Record. Anyways, I came across a part of the article that said "After NASA had received criticism over the nudity on the Pioneer plaque (line drawings of a naked man and woman), the agency chose not to allow Sagan and his colleagues to include a photograph of a nude man and a nude, pregnant woman on the record. Instead, only a silhouette of the couple was included." Why oh why would anyone not allow Sagan and his colleagues to put a picture of a man, a woman and a pregnant woman (obviously to give whoever finds the Record a good idea as to what we look like) and instead present the finder and decipherer of the Golden Record a picture of silhouetted humans? Now some sort of other life is going to look at these pictures and think they found a race of shadow people.

I think humans have become spoiled by clothing and the medieval idea that you should only be nude when you have to. People think it's immoral to display unmentionables even if it's for an extremely important scientific issue. I understand how public nudity can be a problem (there are plenty of people who I would never want to see nude) but there are plenty of viable reasons where nudity presented to the masses is pretty okay.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
100% agree'd.




...




What, not good enough? OK fine.

The link between nudity and sex has been completely fabricated by our culture. It's not real. It only exists because the culture says it does. Check out any primitive tribes that barely even have clothes. There you see that the body isn't immediately sexualized; that intent is inferred instead from obviously sexual actions, postures, and facial expressions. (Interestingly, they often do have jewelry customs, and if you're not wearing the proper jewelry on your naked body, they get offended.)

So now nudity = sex no matter what around here. At first that just meant taking pains to keep naked men and women separate, but now even people of the same sex (especially guys) are afraid of nudity because of homophobia. When I had PE last year, I was the only one in the locker room to actually take a shower or fully change my clothes. And if someone else happened to be in there, they'd get real nervous. What the heck? It's a freaking locker room not a gay sex orgy room. I'm not gonna go to my next class with sweaty underwear just because some people can't handle what a locker room is supposed to be for. And out in the woods at swimming holes, I have to be on a constant lookout just in case someone might come along and be offended. It's tiresome.

And then, I've been in situations of mixed nudity, too. There are these kinda hippie people that get together at this farm where they've built a sauna, and everyone uses it, male and female. No sex, and not even awkwardness, either, unless someone happened to bring along a friend who gets really self-conscious. I seriously can't figure out for the life of me why everyone's so afraid of the human body.

But yeah, you weren't talking about public nudity. Covering up "the naughty bits" in scientific contexts like that is pretty stupid. What if medical textbooks had stuff censored out? I wouldn't trust doctors if that's how things were. And are aliens gonna be embarrassed for us to see the unsilhouetted pictures? Laff.
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
^^I agree with these most intelligent gentlemen right here. Completely baseless social norms should never interfere with science. Never ever forever never. Not that I'd be a nudist, mind you, because I enjoy clothes, but I don't at all agree with the psychotic social stigma associated with nudity.

In before someone brings up the Bible and how God hates nudes.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
God hates the nudes.

...


Oh, and I'm perfectly fine with how every civilized culture on earth prefers to wear clothing. To all of you enlightened individuals who are offended that people are offended at the sight of your naked body, I say: you could stand to lose a few pounds.

Maybe the reason I don't want to see you naked has nothing to do with prudishness. :)
Author:  Capt. Ido Nos [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Simon Zeno wrote:
In before someone brings up the Bible and how God hates nudes.

Actually, I'm quite curious as to where that is in the Bible, Zeno. Could you tell me where that's found so I can look at the context and such?
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Heck if I know or care. But that's the general formula of R&P discussions, ya know?

1. Statement
2. Bible sez
3. Degredation into same old debate

Also, in before "OMG IF YOU HAET R&P SO MUCH DONT POST HERE". It's like a train wreck: it's horrible, but one can't help but watch.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Bible is actually pretty neutral on it, or at least more neutral than you'd expect coming from a culture with an intense aversion to the physical. There are only a few verses either way, and questions can be raised by people with both points of view about how those verses should really be read.
Author:  Didymus [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
As a responsible theologian, Zeno, I'm actually offended by your generalization here. Typically, if I'm going to cite the Bible or Christian theology on a topic, I give you my source. And if you wish to engage me in conversation, I expect the same courtesy. And if you are unwilling to show that courtesy, Zeno, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting in this section at all.

But since you bring it up, the first man and first woman were naked in the beginning, and were not ashamed. Shame only entered into the picture because they sinned. Going along the lines of what some have said, but adding my own perspective, the shame of nakedness that people in our culture feel is very closely associated with our feelings about sexuality. People gawk and gape at nakedness because they have no control over their hormones. And one only has to look at the woman in Teff's avatar to know exactly what I'm talking about.

If our culture were to learn once again to reign in its raging sexual desires, then non-pornographic nakedness probably wouldn't bother us nearly as much. We wouldn't have to worry about people snickering and sneering at naked pictures put together for scientific purposes. Besides, unless they're just like us or are just plain sick, I seriously doubt that the aliens are going to feel the same way about naked human beings as most teenage kids would.
Author:  PianoManGidley [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I sleep nude. So there. It's really comfortable, and it helps keep me cool (my bedroom gets way too hot, since the central air doesn't flow as well in here, so I use fans, but it's still not as good because this house needs serious upgrade and replacement of insulation).

But yeah...just another example of how panicking people ruin intelligent thought and actions for the rest of us. This is why we can't have nice things. Also, I'd presume that with as much emphasis on being sexually gratifying our society makes, most men are likely to be self-conscious of being seen nude because we feel we'll be summed up by the size of Ol' One-Eye down there. Not sure about women, though, except that the ones who concern themselves with vanity often seem (to me, at least) to be concerned with their overall weight, which can be seen and assessed with or without clothes.
Author:  Chekt [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
PianoManGidley wrote:
I sleep nude. So there. It's really comfortable, and it helps keep me cool (my bedroom gets way too hot, since the central air doesn't flow as well in here, so I use fans, but it's still not as good because this house needs serious upgrade and replacement of insulation).
Oh hay, me to. Houston summer nights are too hot.

Anyways, I agree with all of the above. I mean, how are kids supposed to learn about that stuff if they can't look at pictures without feeling ashamed being called a pervert? I grew up that way, and it was hard to learn.


Inverse Tiger wrote:
It's a freaking locker room not a gay sex orgy room.
Lordy, I want so bad to sig that...
Author:  Didymus [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Image
Author:  Chekt [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fabulous.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
lahimatoa wrote:
Maybe the reason I don't want to see you naked has nothing to do with prudishness. :)

So if someone looked good naked...? I think I do. Image
[size=0]Note: remember, anything with one of those emotes is not to be taken seriously[/size]

Chekt wrote:
Anyways, I agree with all of the above. I mean, how are kids supposed to learn about that stuff if they can't look at pictures without feeling ashamed being called a pervert? I grew up that way, and it was hard to learn.

My parents had this giant medical reference book sitting out within my reach, and I read it from a really early age. Nothing about any part of the human anatomy was ever hidden from me in that sense, even at the earliest age. The result: I'm comfortable with myself and others, and Playboys and such aren't titillating (lawl) at all. "OK, yep, that's a woman alright. So?"

Another thing that was actually mentioned in a Seinfeld episode... people naked in everyday settings isn't very arousing. The opposite in fact. Dids mentioned Teff's avatar: but the woman there is still clothed. People don't need nudity to lust. In fact, clothes are often the reason for the lust, because of the way they're designed to accentuate certain parts in an idealized way. Without the aid of clothing, the body actually just looks like what it is: an animal, a walking sack of meat and bones.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
So, Inverse, no picture of a naked woman ever turns you on?

Ever?

Wow.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Heh, that's not what I meant at all, tho I can see how it could be taken that way.

Getting a bit personal (it's my fault for relying so heavily on personal experience in my arguments)... I was pretty religious growing up on top of my body acceptance, so I never got a porn habit with which to become well acquainted with the various magazines. So I dunno, maybe Playboy and similar magazines ARE "that sexual". Just the little I've seen from them wasn't "interesting". There are definitely nudie pics that turn me on, if ya must know (*sigh* I know, this is my fault).

In any case, though, it's obvious the stuff in those magazines is meant to be porn and thus has the same moral status. Won't argue there--intent matters. What I was trying to say is that raising kids without teaching them that naked = sex automatically migt lead to less interest in pornography.
Author:  Shippinator Mandy [ Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Chekt wrote:
PianoManGidley wrote:
I sleep nude. So there. It's really comfortable, and it helps keep me cool (my bedroom gets way too hot, since the central air doesn't flow as well in here, so I use fans, but it's still not as good because this house needs serious upgrade and replacement of insulation).
Oh hay, me to.


As do I. We should, like, start a Nude Sleepers Club.

Anyway, I agree with Didymus about the Adam and Eve thing. It makes no sense to condemn nudity as being horribly wrong if the original humans walked around in their birthday suits, now does it?
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Keep in mind, I am speaking of nudity in and of itself. But we do have to remember what it is we ourselves bring to the situation: our own feelings and thoughts about what nudity means, and our own sexual associations with it, as well as what the nudity is intended to communicate.

And just what was nudity intended to communicate to the theoretical aliens who find the Golden Record? "This is who and what we are. We are Man and Woman, human beings." What's wrong with that?
Author:  Did he sell eggs? [ Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Nudity should be okay everywhere in a non-sexual sense. It's just a bare body. Everyone has one. (But I know some people might look at it sexually, but that's there problem.)

Just my quick thought.
Author:  Amorican [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Who was it that criticized NASA for including nude pictures of a man and woman? How can people be so rediculous? Wouldn't we want to show the aliens what we look like? Of course, I would also include pictures of clothed humans, because that's the state they are most likely to encounter us in.

My thoughts on nudity: It's great and wonderful, and I'm all for it, but only in moderation. I enjoy the mystery a lot. I enjoy wondering what she's got going on under there. If society just decided to lose all it's prudishness, I would be robbed of that. I don't think I'd enjoy living at a nudist hippie commune for very long.
Author:  Mike D [ Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Amorican wrote:
Who was it that criticized NASA for including nude pictures of a man and woman?


A few people have criticized the Pioneer plaques for nudity. Problem is, the Pioneer craft were launched in 1972 and 1973; do we really want to send aliens images of us in 70's fashions? That's a surefire motivation for them to invade and exterminate us. "Wide ties, muttonchops and platform shoes? This planet has got to GO."

Mike
Author:  Amorican [ Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mike D wrote:
Amorican wrote:
Who was it that criticized NASA for including nude pictures of a man and woman?
A few people


What I'm asking was, who were these few people? Are you telling me I have to go do my own research? Feeling really lazy right now.
Author:  Mike D [ Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:03 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't think anyone high profile did so, but I know newspapers across the country were receiving letters complaining that the Pioneer program was promoting space obscenity. Yep, space obscenity.

Mike
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
What message will it deliver to our space children?
Author:  Homerun Starrer [ Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is a space violation of our space rights!

...In space.

But seriously, I don't see what the big deal is. Should we ban anatomical textbooks too, because they show certain body parts? Besides, I don't think other civilzations are going to be offended, heck, they wouldn't even know what human reproductive parts would look like.
Author:  MikeMcG [ Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
They wouldn't even be sure if they were our reproductive parts.
Author:  Zoologist! [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm sure these aliens would probably mistake our reproductive organs for mouths or eyes.
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