Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

Kef's note: This thread was split from this thread.


I have a problem with pornography in general, and feel that the media should not be promoting it even to adult audiences. Pornography is one of the biggest contributing factors to sexual addiction, sexual promiscuity, and objectification and exploitation, typically of women, but increasingly of men as well. In short, it promotes unhealthy sexuality. To promote this material to teens, whose hormones are already raging out of control, is, in my humble opinion, just as bad as a pusher handing out samples at the playground.

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I propose a thread split on the pornography thing. We're getting into two different issues: whether or not such a story constitutes pornography, and the value (or lack thereof) of pornography itself. I have nothing to say about the former (at least yet), but I have plenty to say about the latter.

(EDIT: Done!)

- Kef

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I noticed a lot of people asked if it was just focusing on him being gay, thus trying to hard. It actually doesn't. That might be 10% of the book, but, for the most part, it's about Superhero's.

I don't entirely disagree with you, although my overall opinion on the issue is a bit more moderate. However, pornography is real, it's as old as civilization, and it's not going to just go away. People are going to see it. I still haven't read Hero, so I can't say for certain if it promotes pornography or simply deals with it as a real-world issue. If it's the latter, I've got no problem at all. If you try to tell people something is dirty and nasty and forbidden that only makes it more alluring, especially and particularly porn. In my opinion the only way to confront the issue is directly.

By way of analogy, when I started getting older my mother warned me about drinking. She basically said that almost all teenagers drink at some point and she couldn't stop me from doing the same, so instead she educated me about it. She didn't try to scare me away from it; in fact she said she fully expected I would try it. She gave me a realistic view of the dangers and then told me I was free to make my own choices. As a result of this I didn't drink at all in high school. My friends did, always talking excitedly about how much trouble they'd be in if they got caught. I finally tried it in college, but even then in moderation. These days I could successfully classify as a tee-totaler.



Why not go ahead and do that? You could use Didymus' post as a jumping off point.

Mike

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Logical fallacies ahoy! I'd also like to say: graaaaagh!

Thread split done!

And now that this is officially a discussion of pornography, I'll have to ask that everybody involved be mature about it. You're free to think my opinion is reprehensible or whatever... I just don't want this to become a flame war or an "OMG PORN" thing. Usually you guys don't let me down, so let's hope.

But as for pornography, I have to be honest: I'm all for it. In moderation, of course. Nobody should be addicted to porn any more than they should ever be addicted to anything else. But I don't really see the harm. I'm not going to practice irresponsible sexuality just because of porn. Heck, I'm scared of sex -- but that doesn't have to do with porn either. I don't think I'm terribly different than I would be without it. Now, there's no doubt that it does have bad effects on some people, but the same is true of gambling, alcohol, etc. I don't think it even has that bad an effect on teenagers in general, really. Again, an individual might experience a bad reaction, but I came out all right. (Well, OK, I came out horribly from a Christian perspective, but I'm not Christian to begin with, so...) I'm not advocating targeting it towards teenagers or anything; I'm just saying I wouldn't oppose it as vociferously as some people. Not to mention that it seems bizarre to me that in some places it's legal to have sex but not watch porn at a certain age. Actually having sex at that age is far more dangerous if you ask me!

Anyway, I see porn as an art form. It is admittedly a simple, repetitive, and unintellectual art form, but an art form nonetheless. Porn engages the imagination and the senses in a way that other art doesn't. I'm an artist, and I draw porn from time to time... rarely, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It's fun, and it's good practice. And I think, hey, any motivation to draw can't be that bad.

This all isn't to say that I think all porn out there is just fantastic. In fact, I don't. I hate most porn. I watch it anyway, but mostly because you gotta make-do with what you've got. It's not that I don't enjoy it, it's that most of the stuff isn't any good and it's often misogynist and blah blah blah. I don't like watching guys slap girls on the behind. I'd never treat a woman that way... heck, I don't know if I would even if she really wanted it.

By the way, last month I did a little experiment: starting from around the 22nd or 23rd -- unfortunately, I didn't record the date, but it was a bit longer than a week -- to the end of the month, I told myself, no more porn. The one exception was if I drew the porn myself -- as a motivation to draw -- which was an option I ended up not exercising. Anyway, I didn't have all that rough a time with it. What bothered me more was that I wasn't checking up on 4chan and the like, and I'm somewhat obsessive-compulsive behavior: checking 4chan was part of my daily routine as much as reading the comics, and I hate missing stuff. But the desire to look at pornographic material in general, while still present a couple of times, wasn't so great that I felt that I couldn't break from it. But I would be remiss if I didn't admit that I gave in just before the end of the period -- but only because it was so close anyway. Perhaps I'll do this experiment again with a longer period, like a month, just to be sure. I think a month should be all that's really needed to prove it.

Well, I've rambled on enough. I'll let you guys get some words in now.

- Kef

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Pornography is immoral according to the Christian standpoint of which I am a part; however, the First Amendment allows any sort of non-harmful media to be broadcast and is a bit totalitarian to restrict a particular form of entertainment.

also whoa surpraiz, kef's a /b/

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I have to admit I'm always puzzled by arguments like these. It doesn't literally say that in the Bible; it says things that can be interpreted that way, but people always take these things and declare that it does say that, or that it doesn't say that... it's as if there's never any room for "maybe" in the Bible, even though there are so dang many interpretations.



No, just /h/ and sometimes /e/. And no, I don't post.

- Kef

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I suspected as much, since the first half of your username might have gotten you in a little trouble on the other boards..

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I've got no problem with it. There's nothing I can really think of that would make me think it's immoral (unless I was offended by sex, but I'm not).

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I have no problem with pictures. But videos I can't really handle.
But my view on pornography is that it is really pathetic, and I just don't like it.

I can perfectly understand all the reasons somebody wouldn't like it, but what makes it pathetic?

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Masturbating to watching other people sexing it up instead of going and getting some yourself, to me, is pathetic.

Edited by furrykef for coarse language

But what if I can "get some" and just don't want to?

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Heh, I'm sure you can...

Anyway.

Kef, I think there's at least SOME thing in the Bible that says, like, "For a woman to offer her body to blah blah blah" that refers to porn somehow.

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I enjoy my fair share of porn, but I believe it's a necessary evil.

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So, if a woman offers her body to science when she's dead, she's a two timing slut and will go to hell?

Makes perfect sense!

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Lol, Cola.

You're silly.

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Here's where I play the bad guy.
This is a serious discussion. Well, it's supposed to be, anyway.

If you want to post things like this that add nothing to the conversation, do it somewhere else.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

^ I lol'd.

I'm not really sure what my standpoint on pornography is. I mean, it is useful if someone is curious about certain body parts and how it's done. I mean, they don't really provide visuals at school much anymore, and definitely not with the other one. I'm still confused over what a man's private parts look like. Since it seems pretty strange for me to ask someone if I can look at that, there's only one other way.

Other than educational purposes, no.

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But then how is everybody that uses this thread gonna see it? I mean, we hardly see Kef and Mike in Random Thoughts.

Also, Porn is fine, and a boy will never learn how to use it properly unless his parents talk to him about the Birds and Bees and whatever,(Which my parents never did, and I doubt my friends parents ever did too). Now, when it comes to a man learning to treat a woman properly, learning that comes from their father.

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I wouldn't really define pornography as "educational".
To me, it's meant for one thing and one thing alone: To sexually arouse someone.
There's a lot of "educational" material out there that talks about the hows, wheres, whens, and whys of sex. While videos like that contain nudity, the argument can be made that they are not purely for arousal.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

Actually, it does. Jesus declared that lust itself is wrong, and porn is created for the express purpose of appealing to, engaging, and promoting lust in people. You'd have to go a fair distance out of the way of the text in order to justify porn by reinterpretation. (But by my own estimation, the vast majority of such "reinterpretation" usually involves trying to make the text mean the opposite of what it says anyway, so I very rarely if ever put any stock in "reinterpretation").

Lust, by the way, is typically defined not as simple attraction, but as fantasizing. The chief function of pornography is typically to promote such fantasizing. Therefore, by Christian standards, pornography is wrong.

Also, consider Galatians 5:19. The key term there is aselgeia, that is, "sensuality" or "lasciviousness." Basically, it means that lustful attitudes are both evil and harmful.

I've already highlighted what I feel the main problems with porn are:

1. it promotes lust and other unhealthy sexual attitudes, which are contributing factors to sexual addiction and sex crimes, such as adultery, prostitution, voyeurism, etc.

2. it promotes the objectification, exploitation, and in some cases, abuse of women, men, and even children. It preys not only those who serve as objects of the pornography, but also those who buy it.

And on a final note, if you find yourself regularly using pornography, to the extent that you find you can't stop, then this is a very powerful indicator that you are developing a sexual addiction. If so, I would highly suggest getting help immediately.


Necessary in what way? What benefit do you derive from it other than momentary pleasure, that would justify the harm it does?

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All right, I'm not going to argue the Christian perspective of it. I'm out of my league there anyway.



I'm not convinced there's a causal connection here. It's kind of like saying violent video games will make kids violent. I'm not going to deny that porn creates fantasies as you say; that would be silly. But I think, from a secular perspective, 1) such fantasies are generally normal and harmless, and 2) taking the porn away will not stop them. My own fantasies have little to do with my frequency of viewing porn.

I do have some attitudes towards sex that are unhealthy in my own opinion, but I don't think porn has anything to do with them. I mean, I think that sex, while perfectly natural, is also strange and confusing, but I was like that before I'd ever discovered porn, too.



I disagree here... I was going to say "disagree strongly", but a lot of porn is misogynistic (what with all the butt-slapping and other such treatment). But that isn't an inherent property of porn; it's something that people add to it. And even when I do watch such things, I feel no desire to objectify people. Now, I'll readily admit that I have a weakness for women, but I'd never want to just use them.



I'm not sure if that was directed toward me in particular, or if it was just general advice to everyone, so I guess I'll answer it both ways.

As I stated before, any kind of addiction is bad. I think a porn addiction is generally relatively benign as far as addictions go, since there are much worse things to get addicted to -- my mother has lost a lot of money gambling, and everybody knows the dangers of crack and heroine -- but an addiction is still an addiction and needs to be taken care of.

As for myself, though, I'm not worried. I've been getting bored with porn lately anyway. But you know the cliché of the smoker who says "I can quit at any time!", so that's why I did my little experiment to see how long I could go -- not because I seriously thought I might not make it, but just to make sure I could. I think I'll do it again throughout October.

- Kef

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What is Lust but Love in another form?

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Before you simply dismiss sexual addiction as benign, you might want to study up on the subject a bit more intently. While it may not entail as much obvious damage as abuse of certain substances, the damage it causes can be equally devastating, even deadly. Don't underestimate it. I studied sexual addiction as part of a project I did for my clinical work a few years back. Sexual addictions destroy lives.

The SA website has some very helpful resources if you wish to study more on the subject.


Lust isn't love at all, because it is entirely concerned with self-gratification, not relationships. Lust does nothing but appease your own appetites, whereas love concerns itself with the well-being of the other. One may often mistake one for the other, but in reality, they are opposites.

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Heres a question: Why do you know so much about it?

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Did you even read?

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Yes, but Why Sexual Addiction?

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I have never seen anything wrong with pornography, and I never will.

If a person wants to be in a picture or video in which they perform a sexual act, they have a right to. It's their body- it's up to them to decide whether to sell it. I have the same view of prostitution.

And if a person wants to look at a picture or video in which other people perform sexual acts, that's their right, too. If the performers did it willingly, there should be no ethical issue.

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Except…some people don't have a choice.
i.e. Human Traffiking and CP.