Jena 6

StrongRad · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:36 am

You can't turn on CNN without hearing about this, so what's your take?

For those of you who don't know, it all went down in a high school in Louisiana. Some white students decided (for God only knows why) to hang some nooses in a tree where some black students had been sitting (apparently, they were hanging out under the "white" tree). Those guys got suspended and a bunch of back and forth between races started.

One day, a white student (probably one of the ones that put up the nooses) got jumped by 6 black students. He was knocked down, beaten, knocked unconscious, and pretty much stomped to a pulp.

Those 6 students were charged with assault and attempted murder.

"Civil rights" leaders are marching on Jena, demanding that the charges be reduced (or the boys be released altogether) and that the white students (the ones that put up the nooses) be charged with hate crimes.

Supposedly, the white kid yelled some sort of racial slurs at the 6 black guys. In the minds of some, that, plus the nooses meant that the 6 black kids were acting in self-defense or something.

Personally, I think it's a joke.
6 on 1 is not excusable. I don't care what he said. It was just a word (or several words). Words from one kid aren't equal to kicks to the back of the head from 6 kids.

The white kids got about what they should have gotten (suspension). I would have made them attend some sort of embarrassing tolerance/diversity class, too, but yeah.
Hate crime charges are a bit much.
To punish those boys (with prison) is a violation of their right to free speech. The First Amendment doesn't say anything about speech being respectful, just free.

6 people jumping 1, on the other hand...

One can't help but wonder what would Jesse Jackson would be saying if the 6 kids would have been, say, Jewish, and the people that put up the nooses would have put up, say, swastikas, instead, and 6 Jewish kids had jumped a black kid for calling them kikes or himeys.

What's your take?

Ju Ju Master · **Joined:** Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:01 am **Posts:** 6245

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the white kid was saying to the black guys, no words you can say are equal to getting beaten to a pulp by six people. What would people say if it was the other way around, I wonder? (Black guy insults white kids and they beat the black guy up)

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:45 am

They would want the white kids executed, tortured, then sent to bed without supper.

Chekt · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:59 am

When black people turn everything into a racial thing, aren't they themselves being racist?

(Not that this only applies to black people mind you)

StrongRad · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:02 am

Chekt wrote:

When black people turn everything into a racial thing, aren't they themselves being racist?

(Not that this only applies to black people mind you)

Not according to some of the people I've seen on CNN.
"Only white people commit hate crimes".

I swear, if that woman wasn't serious, I would have lol'd.

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:04 am

Correction: only white anglo-saxon straight men can commit hate crimes. If you're any kind of minority, your hate doesn't count.

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:10 am

A friend of mine joined a Facebook group in protest of this where they were going to wear black all over.

Yeah, this is pretty unfair. Six black people beating up on one white kid, regardless of the body size of any of them...that's insane. Although the white kid did go too far with the nooses, though. That was also unacceptable.

Color Printer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:24 am

Attention protesters: get a brain and/or life. 6-on-1 is never right. Those black kids are getting what they deserve. I'm not saying that the white kids didn't deserve suspension, they did. But come on. 6 black kids beating up 1 white kid isn't right, no matter what the kid said.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:50 am

Quote:

When black people turn everything into a racial thing, aren't they themselves being racist?

Of course it's racist. If the races were reversed, Jackson and Co. would also reverse their position.

That's why it's impossible to take them seriously about anything. No credibility whatsoever.

And 6 on 1 makes me sick. I don't care what races or ages or genders are involved. How much of a coward do you have to be to jump someone with the odds so stacked in your favor?

ramrod · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:15 am

I do remember seeing somewhere that a black guy was at a party, and was also beat the crap up. This came before the 6 on 1 assault that you are all talking about so the six black kids beating up the one white kid might have been retaliation.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:20 am

ramrod wrote:

I do remember seeing somewhere that a black guy was at a party, and was also beat the crap up. This came before the 6 on 1 assault that you are all talking about so the six black kids beating up the one white kid might have been retaliation.

I don't care if it's retaliation. Does that make it right? Moral? Legal?

Were the white kids extremely racist? Heck yes. Did they do something extremely despicable? Heck yes. Did that warrant what's gone on since then? NO.

What lessons are these parents and leaders teaching their children? Responding to racism with violence is okay? Martin Luther King, Jr. would be disappointed to see the lack of progress some areas of the country have made to this point in history.

ramrod · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:23 am

lahimatoa wrote:

ramrod wrote:

I do remember seeing somewhere that a black guy was at a party, and was also beat the crap up. This came before the 6 on 1 assault that you are all talking about so the six black kids beating up the one white kid might have been retaliation.

I don't care if it's retaliation. Does that make it right? Moral? Legal?

I'm not saying that it's either. I'm just saying that because it was a part of the story that was not told here.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:35 am

If you could find a source, that would be nice.

ramrod · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:06 am

lahimatoa wrote:

If you could find a source, that would be nice.

The one I read it on was on a Facebook group. It describes what happened.

Quote:

Last fall in Jena, Louisiana, the day after two Black high school students sat beneath the "white tree" on their campus, nooses were hung from the tree. When the superintendent dismissed the nooses as a "prank," more Black students sat under the tree in protest. The District Attorney then came to the school accompanied by the town's police and demanded that the students end their protest, telling them, "I can be your best friend or your worst enemy... I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen."

A series of white-on-black incidents of violence followed, and the DA did nothing. But when a white student was beaten up in a schoolyard fight, the DA responded by charging six black students with attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

It's a story that reads like one from the Jim Crow era, when judges, lawyers and all-white juries used the justice system to keep blacks in "their place"--but it's happening today. The families of these young men are fighting back, but the odds are stacked against them. Together, we can make sure their story is told, that this becomes an issue for the Governor of Louisiana, and that justice is provided for the Jena 6. It starts now. Please add your voice:

http://www.colorofchange.org/jena/

The noose-hanging incident and the DA's visit to the school set the stage for everything that followed. Racial tension escalated over the next couple of months, and on November 30, the main academic building of Jena High School was burned down in an unsolved fire. Later the same weekend, a black student was beaten up by white students at a party. The next day, black students at a convenience store were threatened by a young white man with a shotgun. They wrestled the gun from him and ran away. While no charges were filed against the white man, the students were arrested for the theft of the gun.

That Monday at school, a white student, who had been a vocal supporter of the students who hung the nooses, taunted the black student who was beaten up at the off-campus party and allegedly called several black students "nigger." After lunch, he was knocked down, punched and kicked by black students. He was taken to the hospital but was released and was well enough to go to a social event that evening.

lahimatoa · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:41 am

If these events really happened, they certainly change my perception of these events.

But a Facebook group? Pardon me for not immediately trusting the postings of a random stranger.

ramrod · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:49 am

lahimatoa wrote:

If these events really happened, they certainly change my perception of these events.

But a Facebook group? Pardon me for not immediately trusting the postings of a random stranger.

The sourcing for those are listed for the Chicago Tribune website, but since I don't want to pay for their online services, I'll let you look it up yourself.

http://brockport.facebook.com/event.php?eid=4784183773

The sources are located near the bottom.

Chris|sirhC · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:04 am

6 people on 1... thats just wrong. Nothing that the white person did could justify getting beaten like that...even though what he did was extremely stupid and racist, there is no excuse. This type of behaviour makes me worried for the future... whats it going to be in 10 years time for my kids when i have them?? It just makes me feel sick.

Mike D · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:11 am

Pay no attention to the TV talking heads, the Sharpton / Jackson media circus, or Facebook groups. That's just sensationalism. What all those people are saying about the case is ultimately irrelevant. Also, the question is not whether the Jena 6 were wrong for what they did...of course they were. The question is whether the charges were fair.

Aggravated battery is a very, very serious charge. By the letter of the law, aggravated battery involves causing serious injury with a deadly weapon. Kicking a person in the head can in fact be lethal or permanently damaging, but it depends very much on how you go about it. There are certainly quicker and easier ways to cause grievous bodily harm than tennis shoes. I also dislike any legal precedent that establishes sneakers as deadly weapons.

My overall opinion on the Jena 6: assault, yes, possibly aggravated assault. Simple battery, yes. Aggravated battery, doubtful. Hate crime, yes. Conspiracy...not entirely convinced.

This kid Mychal Bell sounds like an up and coming menace to society, frankly, given his record. I truly doubt he's broken the law for the last time, and the people who are championing him now are probably going to be embarrassed by him later. Walters, the D.A., sounds like a real zealot; I'm definitely underwhelmed by him. The fact that he tried to stick these kids with attempted murder 2 at first was major overkill. Even if he did so as a bargaining chip so he could get the aggravated battery charges to stick, it was still excessive.

I don't care what Al Sharpton and his buddies think about this. I don't care what Sean Hannity and his little TV pals think about this. I have no respect for media pundits whatsoever; all they do is reduce our political discourse to emotionally charged soundbites that tell their target audiences exactly what they want to hear. They aren't worth the time of day on this or any other issue.

Finally, I definitely don't care what a bunch of bandwagon jumping cause célèbre Hollywood idiots think about this.

Mike

StrongRad · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:23 pm

I cannot disagree with you much there Mike.

It does seem like the charges might be a bit excessive, but these guys do need to be charged with something. 6 guys jumping 1 guy is never right.

I don't like the idea of charging either side with a hate crime.

First, the noose people: What they did was in poor taste, offensive, and stupid. However it did not hurt anyone. To see free speech (or anything that might be called free speech) called a hate crime is a scary precedent.

Now, for the Jena 6: They beat up a guy. They beat him up because he was white and supposedly shouted a bunch of racial slurs at them. I don't like calling that a hate crime, though. I don't like the idea of a hate crime. Justice is supposedly blind. If this is true, then the race of neither the victims nor the perpetrators should come into play.

While most of us are smart enough to see through the rhetoric, the problem is with those who aren't (see the "Free the Jena 6" people).

Inverse Tiger · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:22 pm

Charges: definitely excessive. That's a problem. The whites' dismissive attitudes about what the kids did: also a problem. But "Free the Jena 6". Um... no, they beat up a dude.

But there are signs of double standards and whites not "getting it" all over this thing. This is a town where it looks like segregation still exists. In a climate like that, in comparison to the 6 against 1, there's a constant feeling of life being 85 against 12 (percentage of white/black in town). Nooses in a tree isn't protected speech like whites may think because it's never been directed at them. To blacks, it's can only be seen as a death threat. So the school board's flippant attitude about it, overriding the principal, was just wrong.

The white kids should be charged with making death threats (NOT hate crimes, which is a ridiculous concept), and the black kids should be charged with assault (I've heard conflicting news stories about exactly how injured the white kid was, but the severity of the assualt charge would depend on that). That the whites had a wrist slap while the blacks are having the book thrown at them shows that something isn't right here.

furrykef · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:22 pm

Chekt wrote:

When black people turn everything into a racial thing, aren't they themselves being racist?

Indeed, but I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic. This was clearly a racial thing from the very beginning.

StrongRad wrote:

First, the noose people: What they did was in poor taste, offensive, and stupid. However it did not hurt anyone. To see free speech (or anything that might be called free speech) called a hate crime is a scary precedent.

I think hanging a noose is a bit worse than hate speech. There's an implied threat. Now, depending on who did it, that threat could be a "ha ha very funny" kind of threat, or it could be a gravely serious threat, but it should be taken seriously in the absence of evidence to the contrary. And a guy who has the audacity to hang a noose should know that. I don't really know if that in itself should be a hate crime, though, but I can see why some would consider it so. I think I agree with Inverse Tiger that the whole concept of a "hate crime" is absurd, but if it's the law, then the courts must abide by the law. (I don't think things should work that way, but they do.) It depends on if a death threat can itself be a hate crime according to their laws, but I believe the answer to that is generally "yes".

I don't think the black guys should be charged with a hate crime. Not because I think black guys are incapable of committing them, but because they didn't beat up on the white guy just because he was white. They beat up on him because of what he did. And yes, I do think aggravated battery is a bit much, and calling for a murder charge at the beginning was just irresponsible. They certainly should get something, though.

- Kef

The Noid · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:46 pm

Quote:

The next day, black students at a convenience store were threatened by a young white man with a shotgun. They wrestled the gun from him and ran away. While no charges were filed against the white man, the students were arrested for the theft of the gun.

This makes perfect sense. Yup.

Black kids should be charged for the assault on the white kids and the white kids should be charged for hate crime + assault + attempted assault + being total jerkheads.

I don't support what the black kids did but I also don't support what the white kids did either.

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:52 pm

The Noid wrote:

I don't support what the black kids did but I also don't support what the white kids did either.

Well, no one supports what they did... I don't think that's the issue here

The Noid · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:59 pm

YEAH WELL SO IS YOUR MOM, ED.

getbackontopic

Mike D · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:05 am

StrongRad wrote:

I don't like the idea of a hate crime. Justice is supposedly blind. If this is true, then the race of neither the victims nor the perpetrators should come into play.

There's a basic concept in American jurisprudence that, as the Supreme Court put it in 1987, "the more purposeful is the criminal conduct, the more serious is the offense, and, therefore, the more severely it ought to be punished." The rationale behind hate crime legislation is that these crimes imply a threat against an entire group of people. Hate crime perpetrators are considered more dangerous because personal ideology is a large part of their motivation. They're more likely to inspire like-minded people to act in a similar manner. As you might imagine the first hate crime legislation formed in the aftermath of the civil rights turmoil of the 60's.

A landmark Supreme Court case in hate crime legislation was Wisconsin v. Mitchell back in 1993. In the decision, Chief Justice Rehnquist agreed with Wisconsin's stance on hate crimes: "...this conduct is thought [508 U.S. 476, 488] to inflict greater individual and societal harm. For example, according to the State and its amici, bias-motivated crimes are more likely to provoke retaliatory crimes, inflict distinct emotional harms on their victims, and incite community unrest."

Additionally, hate crime legislation is not meant to overlap with free speech. In Wisconsin v. Mitchell it was determined that hate crime laws were legitimate so long as they did not criminalize behavior protected by the First Amendment.

Mike

Amorican · **Joined:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:24 am **Posts:** 132

I think intelligent people can disagree on a number of things involved in this case, however this bothered me:

StrongRad wrote:

First, the noose people: What they did was in poor taste, offensive, and stupid. However it did not hurt anyone. To see free speech (or anything that might be called free speech) called a hate crime is a scary precedent.

It was absolutely 100% a death threat. It was a way of trying to keep blacks in their place by using fear. "If you don't do what we say, we will kill you." If you are a black person, what other possible way is there to interpret that action? It is harmful, and should not be protected speech on a high school campus. The kids responsible for it should have been immediately expelled from the school.

I feel zero sympathy for the white kid that got beaten up. You treat a group of people like garbage long enough, at a certain point they're just not going to take it anymore. You treat them as less than human, they're eventually going to lash out at you. That's not to say that beating the kid was right, but I don't feel the least bit sorry for him.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm

Amorican wrote:

It was absolutely 100% a death threat. It was a way of trying to keep blacks in their place by using fear.

Unless you were in the heads of the kids that did it and actually know them, you're not really qualified to make this statement. At least not any more qualified than I am to say it was a joke.

Quote:

If you are a black person, what other possible way is there to interpret that action?

I suppose it depends on where you are. In the south, I suppose it might be the only way, however, if you live in, say, Minnesota, you might take it differently. I was talking to a former roommate of mine that lives there and he said it was "<moron> rednecks just showing that they're <morons>." He admitted, however that he wasn't one of the students.

Quote:

It is harmful, and should not be protected speech on a high school campus.

It was an act that did not harm anyone. How many drops of blood did it cost the victims? None. How many bruises did they get from it? None. The very notion of "hate speech" is a reaction of our "Victim Society".
Who gets to decide what's hate speech? The "victim"? If that's the case, I claim that anything said negatively towards anyone who shares the same religion, political philosophies, or sports team affiliations is hate speech.
I really think we should take ANY encroachment on the first amendment very seriously. Otherwise, we'll all end up getting tasered and/or imprisoned for saying something that someone doesn't agree with.
(Don't read this as an endorsement of racism, homophobia, or other "hate".)

Quote:

The kids responsible for it should have been immediately expelled from the school.

I don't think this is expulsion. Far from it. That'd be saying that something stupid warrants a more harsh penalty than fighting (that actually hurts someone).

Quote:

I feel zero sympathy for the white kid that got beaten up. You treat a group of people like garbage long enough, at a certain point they're just not going to take it anymore. You treat them as less than human, they're eventually going to lash out at you.

This kid hasn't been shown to have actually been in the group that put up the noose. He wasn't involved in the other actions that led up to this. Sure, he might have been shouting racist things, but there's nothing that says they didn't start it first. Even if he started it, whatever happened to the mantra we learned in Kindergarten? "Sticks and stones my break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" These kids should have sucked it up and been bigger men. Actually, in this town, it appears that there were several chances for someone on both sides to have been the bigger man and said action of being the bigger man would have probably defused this situation.

Amorican · **Joined:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:24 am **Posts:** 132

StrongRad wrote:

Amorican wrote:

It was absolutely 100% a death threat. It was a way of trying to keep blacks in their place by using fear.

Unless you were in the heads of the kids that did it and actually know them, you're not really qualified to make this statement. At least not any more qualified than I am to say it was a joke.

Hanging a noose from a tree where black people were sitting is a death threat directed at black people. It is not a joke It does not matter what was in the heads of the people that put the noose there. Noose = death to blacks.

Quote:

If you are a black person, what other possible way is there to interpret that action?

I suppose it depends on where you are. In the south, I suppose it might be the only way, however, if you live in, say, Minnesota, you might take it differently. I was talking to a former roommate of mine that lives there and he said it was "<moron> rednecks just showing that they're <morons>." He admitted, however that he wasn't one of the students.

This happened in the south. I'll say it again. Noose = death to blacks.

Quote:

It is harmful, and should not be protected speech on a high school campus.

It was an act that did not harm anyone. How many drops of blood did it cost the victims? None. How many bruises did they get from it? None. The very notion of "hate speech" is a reaction of our "Victim Society".

I still maintain it's a death threat, and death threats should not be protected speech. And "harm" doesn't have to be physical.

Quote:

This kid hasn't been shown to have actually been in the group that put up the noose.

Doesn't matter. He found his own way to participate, and for these particular black kids, it was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm not saying it was right, but I am saying he is ultimately just as responsible as they are.

Quote:

Even if he started it, whatever happened to the mantra we learned in Kindergarten? "Sticks and stones my break my bones, but words will never hurt me?"

The problem is, that mantra is the biggest bunch of idealistic BS that has ever been taught to children. Words can be very painful. Often moreso than sticks and stones. Physical scars can heal. People carry their emotional scars around with them for a lifetime.

I hope the Jena 6 aren't let off with no charges at all. They commited a crime and for that they must pay. But this didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a situation created by the intolerance of white people, and this must be dealt with as well.

Acekirby · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:24 pm

StrongRad wrote:

Not according to some of the people I've seen on CNN.
"Only white people commit hate crimes".

I swear, if that woman wasn't serious, I would have lol'd.

I still lol'd.

Why is every single thing in our society boil down to race? I mean come on. The Jena 6 need to be punished for what they did, 6 on 1 is inexcusable no matter the reason.

But the school should keep an eye on those white kids too. Instigation = no no.

bwave · **Posted:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:18 pm

I heard about this by some whining kid on gears of war.

Then...

HEADSHOT!

STFU!

But annoyinces at R&P invading xbox live aside, I think this teaches those white kids a lesson. When you say something, it has consequences. Yeah, I think the black kids went too far, but hey, they were provoked.

And people need to stop whining about 1st ammendment rights, and quit attacking people who dont support them with all their heart. People simply shouldnt be allowed to allow this type of racism to go on. Racism is bad enough. Hanging nooses is worse.

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