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An alternative to Capital Punishment (Although not yet)
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12503		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Droideka [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  An alternative to Capital Punishment (Although not yet)
So, me and Sommy were having a discussion about an alternative to the death penalty, although, the technology required to do so isn't around here yet, it was still worth a thread. (I give full credit to Somm-1 for this, I only posted it because I have a definite opinion about it all) Read the chat here for the full story (Mind that this is all assuming there will ever be mind-wiping technology) It outlines my position, and the topic itself in more detail than I could think to write again:

-Somm-1: I have a topic for the R&P, which is a new one on me, but I don't have an arguement for either side of it. Topics without opinions are discouraged.
Droideka: Ah
Droideka: What's the topic?
-Somm-1: This is what I have so far...
-Somm-1: "This isn't exactly a real life political issue(to my knowledge), though most SciFi fans might know what I'm talking about. Is it right to erase someone's memory as a substitute for capitol punishment?"
Droideka: Hmm...
-Somm-1: "The criminal technically continues to live if the body isn't dead, but the person as he/she existed effectively ceases to be and is replaced by someone else."
Droideka: You know, there's more to it all then memory, though
Droideka: Genes, sinful nature, all that play into it
-Somm-1: Well, let's say genes didn't make him that way
-Somm-1: And everyone has sinful nature...
Droideka: Right, some people can't control it, and a true memory wipe would also make it so the person would have to relearn walking, talking, and voluntary movements, unless we got really, really good at it
-Somm-1: Assume they still have basic programming.
-Somm-1: So to speak.
Droideka: Ah, okay
-Somm-1: Any personl experiance is gone.
-Somm-1: personal*
Droideka: I'd say it depends on the crime, really, if they did a really, really horrible murder (Meaning it's worse than just walking up and shooting someone, where they die quickly), no, but otherwise, possibly
-Somm-1: Let's say it was a Communist dictator who killed millions.
Droideka: Yeah, kill him
-Somm-1: You Sith all think alike, don't you?
-Somm-1: :P
Droideka: Not really, I'm a slightly more merciful one
-Somm-1: A merciful Sith? That's a contradiction.
Droideka: Not necessarily
Droideka: The Sith in themselves aren't evil, but they had a lot of bad apples in there. (Palpatine, Malak, etc.)
-Somm-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The original good Sith. I'm talking about the later ones.
Droideka: Well, they are supposed to do it all for the sake of order, and preserving their people, so we take out those that disrupt it all
Droideka: The troublemakers
Somm-1: Including those of higher authority than you do not run the show the way you think it should be...
Droideka: Not really, but it happens sometimes, if he screws up too much, we'll take him out
-Somm-1: Every Sith wants to be in charge.
-Somm-1: Wait, we've strayed from the original topic.
-Somm-1: Whoops.
Droideka: Oh, right
-Somm-1: Anyway, you know what happened to Revan, right?
Droideka: He eventually went back to being a Jedi
Droideka: I think the Jedi wiped part of his memory
-Somm-1: Yeah.
-Somm-1: That's actually what brought up the question.
Droideka: Ah
-Somm-1: Revan and Malak sought to control the galaxy and crushed anyone who stood in their way. Granted, Revan opted for surgical strikes while Malak just obliterated entire worlds, but you get the idea.
Droideka: Right
Droideka: Also, Revan was doing it to save the galaxy, and Malak for power
-Somm-1: Revan already saved the galaxy. Then he turned on the Republic
Droideka: Ah
-Somm-1: When Malak took over, the Sith became less tactical and more aggressive.
Droideka: Right
-Somm-1: That's all that changed.
-Somm-1: Anyway, Revan still commited great attrocities. He slaughtered or turned mos of the jedi and Republic Soldiers. But still, the Jedi didn't execute him. Sort of.
Droideka: Right
-Somm-1: most*
-Somm-1: Did the jedi do the right thing?
Droideka: No, I would have killed him
-Somm-1: Why?
Droideka: One thing, he already proved to be extremely dangerous, another, (This is from Star Wars, I think, somewhere), after having one's mind wiped, a slight jog of the memory can bring back total recall
Droideka: Thusly, he would be a huge danger, because he was so powerful, and in a position where he could do a massive amount of damage
Author:  Vitruvian Dude [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
tl;dr

Summarize it for us, captain.
Author:  Droideka [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Vitruvian Dude wrote:
tl;dr

Summarize it for us, captain.

Essentially, rather than killing someone for a crime, wipe their memory, and theoretically, they would no longer be a murderer. The problem is, in the setting used to describe it, a single memory can bring total recall, and thus, they would be a killer again.
Author:  furrykef [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think it would work. It would be pretty much impossible to target specific memories, no matter how advanced the technology got, so about the best you could do is wipe their entire memory. So I think that "assume they still have basic programming" is a big assumption. Not to mention that if that basic programming were wiped, they can probably never get it back. Despite The Jungle Book, feral children -- children who grew up in the wild -- have never successfully integrated into society. Some of their cognitive functions just weren't there anymore.

But supposing that we could reasonably make that assumption, I'd be all for it, as long as we can be reasonably sure that a repeat occurrence would not happen.

- Kef
Author:  Duecex2 [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
You know, I'd normally totally blast you for all that Star Wars discussion, but the fact that I understood all of it because I was a humongous fan in 6th grade is stopping me.

Anyway, this idea sounds interesting, it could work, but we lack the technology.
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Droideka wrote:
Vitruvian Dude wrote:
tl;dr

Summarize it for us, captain.

Essentially, rather than killing someone for a crime, wipe their memory, and theoretically, they would no longer be a murderer. The problem is, in the setting used to describe it, a single memory can bring total recall, and thus, they would be a killer again.

That was done on a Babylon 5 episode. Turns out, there was a monk on B5 who had previously had his memory wiped. The villains of the episode were trying to force him to remember his crimes so they could feel justified in killing him for revenge.

In general, I'm not in favor of something like this. It seems that when people start tampering with the natural order for the sake of justice like this, neither nature nor justice is served. Ever read The Thanatos Syndrom, or seen the movie Serenity? Human beings - even the most wicked - are still human beings, not laboratory rats. Death may not exactly be better, but at least it would be quick and over with. Who knows how long the experimentation process might take?
Author:  Beardo [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your idea strongly reminds me of "A Clockwork Orange". Basically, the idea behind it is it's better to let someone choose to be bad then be forced to be good. I strongly agree with this, moral freedom is too important for people to be messing around with.
Author:  StrongRad [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Vitruvian Dude wrote:
tl;dr

Summarize it for us, captain.

If it's too long for you too read, it's too long for you to post.

If you can't be bothered to read it, don't post.
It's pretty simple.
Author:  furrykef [ Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
The problem isn't that it's long, but that it has a lot of clutter that makes it difficult to read. I have to admit that I didn't really read it either.
Author:  bwave [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:02 am ]
Post subject: 
I cant really say that I'm for this idea.

Also, I wouldnt want my government to get used to having brain wiping technology at their disposal.

Also, who would they test this on?
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:31 am ]
Post subject: 
bwave wrote:
Also, who would they test this on?
Jews and Black people, its the only logical explanation.

This is fine and all, but no matter what, if you murder someone, you're a murderer, even if you don't remember.

Unless you're proven innocent, O.J.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
This is fine and all, but no matter what, if you murder someone, you're a murderer, even if you don't remember.


Yes, but so what?

- Kef
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
furrykef wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
This is fine and all, but no matter what, if you murder someone, you're a murderer, even if you don't remember.


Yes, but so what?

- Kef
So no ammount of brain draining could make it otherwise; that person is still dead, and his/her blood is still on your hands.(Metaphorically speaking)
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Right. But what does that matter? What would doing something like locking up or killing the criminal instead solve?
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
furrykef wrote:
Right. But what does that matter? What would doing something like locking up or killing the criminal instead solve?
Justice.

What if someone killed your parents, and you know who did it. They get their brain washed, and you and your family are the only ones left suffering, while the man who took your mothers life is sitting in a Halfway house, trying to recreate his life without any knowledge of what he did before.

He doesn't know what he did, but you do, and you don't feel Justice is served.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
The thing is, I don't believe in that concept of justice. The logic goes something like this: "I'm really really mad at this guy, so kill him." Of course, if that guy killed somebody dear to you, the anger is well justified, but that's still what it boils down to. Killing out of anger doesn't get justified just because the anger itself is.

That said, I don't really feel sorry that people like mass murderers and terrorists have to die when they get caught. But feeling that we should kill somebody and actually doing it are two different things. (I'm saying this partly for the sake of argument. I'm not particularly anti-death penalty.)

- Kef
Author:  Parlod [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
My opinion kind of conflicts on this issue. I do believe in capital punishment and in imprisonment, but I often wonder if there is any better alternative. Simply wiping their memory seems like a good choice.

But if the criminal's memory were erased, then justice wouldn't really be fulfilled for the family, would it? If someone commits a horrendous act, and simply has their mind erased, doesn't that seem a little too easy for the criminal? They're given a brand-new clean slate as reward for their actions.

At first, this seems like a good idea. But the more I think about it, the less I like it.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmm... now that I think about it, such a procedure wouldn't help the crime rate. Somehow getting your memory erased doesn't sound as bad as serving a long prison term, only to die in prison either of an injection or old age.

- Kef
Author:  Parlod [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
furrykef wrote:
Hmm... now that I think about it, such a procedure wouldn't help the crime rate. Somehow getting your memory erased doesn't sound as bad as serving a long prison term, only to die in prison either of an injection or old age.

- Kef

Exactly. People would get the mentality of "So what if I kill/rape that person? The worst thing that'll happen to me is a getting a clean slate."
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Of course, having your entire memory erased (other than basic functioning) -- if it were hypothetically possible -- would be like dying and being reborn. Which still involves dying. In other words, you'd be a completely different person (which is the idea in the first place). But many potential criminals probably wouldn't think that way...

- Kef
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