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| Yes, No, or Wait. (Prayer: An illusion?) http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12600 |
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| Author: | Did he sell eggs? [ Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Yes, No, or Wait. (Prayer: An illusion?) |
I saw this very interesting video on Youtube about how God answers prayers is showing that God doesn't exist, using logic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI But then, I watched this response, which is very smart in showing how this guy believes that God does exist using the same logic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9B8a3cOY5c I'm impressed with both people. Comments? Thoughts? Explanations? |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:27 pm ] |
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I'm going to write the first part of this post before watching the second video (and some of it before finishing the first one). It would be silly for me to pretend that I can look at this from an objective point of view... I'm already going to have beliefs on the matter and I'm obviously going to watch the second video to see what's wrong with it and try to refute it, because that's how the human mind works and I can't do anything about it. He didn't prove that God does exist, because that's impossible. If the existence of God were possible to either prove or disprove, it would have been done long ago and generally accepted as truth by now... the most brilliant minds in the world have been working on arguments for both sides for millennia. Anyway, this "optical illusion" thing is exactly what I believe. On that note, prayers work the same way superstitions do. Here's my favorite example: consider a baseball player who, while not horrible, just isn't that great at hitting the ball. One day he walks up to the plate and before getting ready for the pitch, he taps the end of his bat on the ground several times. The first time he tries this, lo and behold, he gets a hit! So he starts doing it every time he goes up to the plate. Sometimes he strikes out, but he still hits just often enough to sustain his belief that tapping the ground might have something to do with hitting the ball. People can and do get superstitions in this manner. Casinos are filled with people who are convinced that maybe the way they push the button or whatever has something to do with whether or not they win. I don't see why the same thing wouldn't extend to prayer. Even people who aren't normally superstitious may fall for it because they're under the belief that, because it's religion, it isn't superstition. The thought that religion can be superstitious never even occurs to them. OK, now it's time to watch the second video. ......... I really hope you don't think that's a serious proof that God exists. What happens if you pray to an imaginary jug of milk instead of a real one? - Kef |
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| Author: | Did he sell eggs? [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:38 am ] |
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No, I don't use that as my proof, I was saying that that was what he was trying to prove from his argument. Phrased wrong. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:59 am ] |
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You mean that what the guy says doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, then? That is correct: it doesn't. But it does mean that prayer cannot be used as proof that God does exist. - Kef |
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| Author: | Mike D [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:21 am ] |
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The reasoning the first guy is using is similar to James Randi's explanation of faith healing. The argument goes that if you leave a disease or injury untreated one of three things will happen: 1. It gets better 2. It get worse 3. It stays the same After you apply your faith healing you then tailor your response based on which of the three results occurred: 1. "See? It worked!" 2. "We need more of it." 3. "We arrested it." The basic idea is that since all possible situations can have either a positive, negative, or neutral outcome all you have to do is spin your answer so it supports the results. This is a classic and time-tested method of con artists everywhere. As for the second video, that guy completely fails to undermine the first guy's reasoning. Kef's pretty much already nailed it so there's no reason for me to reiterate. I'll just mention that the first guy's example of a jug of milk is unimportant; the idea is that you can pray to anything, real or imagined, and get the same results. Mike |
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| Author: | Zoologist! [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:22 pm ] |
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Wait, so there's no Jug of Milk God? My life has been a waste... |
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| Author: | StrongRad [ Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:35 pm ] |
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Zoologist! wrote: Wait, so there's no Jug of Milk God? My life has been a waste...
He didn't say that. Just beware the skim milk god and soy milk god. Those are as phony as phony can be. You know, sometimes, I question the value of prayer, but I keep doing it. To be honest sometimes I think that, God's will is God's will, and He will do whatever He wants. Also, He knows what we want, so I don't totally understand prayer. I just feel that, for me, talking to God is a comforting thing. Whatever works, right? |
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:09 am ] |
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StrongRad wrote: You know, sometimes, I question the value of prayer, but I keep doing it. To be honest sometimes I think that, God's will is God's will, and He will do whatever He wants. Also, He knows what we want, so I don't totally understand prayer. I just feel that, for me, talking to God is a comforting thing. *In before Didymus quotes CS Lewis*
Well, I guess I kind of agree with CS Lewis in that quote from Shadowlands (I watched it once). A pastor came and told him that if he kept praying his wife would be healed, and he said something like, "That's not why I pray - it doesn't change God, it changes me." Personally, I do feel God's will is already established, but somethings I think me praying is part of his will, so I keep doing it. |
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