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Rowling Outs Beloved Character
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Author:  Einoo T. Spork [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:50 am ]
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Rusty wrote:
This is just from my experience. And if they didn't care what people think, why do they go out of their way to express their homosexuality? I don't run around telling everyone I'm straight. And wearing "I LOVE WOMEN" shirts or whatever.


Someone needs to start making shirts like that now.
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:53 am ]
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I could argue with you some more, Rusty, but we have already tread in the zone of toastpaint. You obviously don't know what it's like to be gay, and frankly, I don't hold that against you. But I will have you know that there is much more discrimination today than you think, and that the so-called "flamboyancy" of gay individuals is more justified than you think.

Can we please go back to talking about the issue at hand?

Dumbledore is a very popular character, and Rowling is a very popular writer. How will Dumbledore's outing affect children's literature in the future? Is including gay role models in fiction an effective way of promoting tolerance?

Lets discuss things like this.
Author:  Mike D [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:37 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
If you read my comments in THAT OTHER THREAD I mentioned, you might note that I object to the way they expect US to act in certain ways as well. Some GLBT group wanted a student expelled from UGA because of some stupid comments he made ON AN ANONYMOUS EVALUATION.


I need to clarify this for those of you who might be curious about the thread in question; UGA's LGBT student group, the Lambda Alliance, is not calling for the student's expulsion. I'm not sure where you got that, Didymus. I know a lot of the Lambda folks personally, and I can vouch for them. Lambda is concerned with how long it took UGA to deal with the issue; the initial infraction was in January, after all.

My opinions on the anonymity issue are in that thread, but since Didymus's statement was here I felt it best to respond here. And also to bump the link to that discussion...it IS an interesting issue...but read my post on it first...

Mike
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:50 am ]
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Perhaps "expulsion" was too specific. I only noted that, at the end of the article, several opinions were expressed that the discipline given was not sufficient, and that UGA's response was not quick or severe enough. As it is, I could only speculate what might be considered "enough" under such circumstances.
Author:  Acekirby [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:36 am ]
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Going all the way back to the initial issue here...

Really, JK, what was the point of revealing this? It's not like it mattered. At all. If it did, why not mention it in the story?
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:41 am ]
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The point was that the character was gay. Somebody asked about Dumbledore's love life, and she answered. What was she supposed to do? It's not as if she held a press conference to randomly announce that Dumbledore is gay.

- Kef
Author:  Acekirby [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:52 am ]
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furrykef wrote:
Somebody asked about Dumbledore's love life, and she answered. What was she supposed to do? It's not as if she held a press conference to randomly announce that Dumbledore is gay.

This is new. I figured she was just saying it along with a bunch of other random unneeded information.

Still doesn't add anything to the story, though.
Author:  Rusty [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:55 am ]
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furrykef wrote:
The point was that the character was gay. Somebody asked about Dumbledore's love life, and she answered. What was she supposed to do? It's not as if she held a press conference to randomly announce that Dumbledore is gay.

- Kef


In the article I read, it didn't show anyone asking about that. Source?
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:58 am ]
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The article I read seems to have been a transcript of a public appearance of some sort, and yes, there were questions asked. One of them about Neville. Apparently, he marries some completely unknown Hufflepuff girl, then moves in to live with her over the Leaky Cauldron, impressing his students with his live-over-a-pub coolitude. Somehow, Dumpledore being gay along side this pretty much means it's trivial.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:59 am ]
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It was in the article linked to in the first post:

Quote:
After reading briefly from the final book, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," she took questions from audience members.

She was asked by one young fan whether Dumbledore finds "true love."

"Dumbledore is gay," the author responded to gasps and applause.


- Kef
Author:  Rusty [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:59 am ]
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furrykef wrote:
It was in the article linked to in the first post:

Quote:
After reading briefly from the final book, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows," she took questions from audience members.

She was asked by one young fan whether Dumbledore finds "true love."

"Dumbledore is gay," the author responded to gasps and applause.


- Kef


Ah, thank you.

It was still pointless, however.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:00 am ]
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So what was she supposed to do, then? What wouldn't have been a pointless answer?
Author:  Rusty [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:02 am ]
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furrykef wrote:
So what was she supposed to do, then? What wouldn't have been a pointless answer?


Hm. Well, the fact that someone asked makes everything..completely different.
Author:  Acekirby [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:05 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
One of them about Neville. Apparently, he marries some completely unknown Hufflepuff girl, then moves in to live with her over the Leaky Cauldron, impressing his students with his live-over-a-pub coolitude.

I think he marries Hannah Abbott, a Hufflepuff girl who was mentioned like once every book, and that was it. Not a major character by any stretch of the imagination.
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:49 pm ]
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I found an article regarding Rowling's decision- http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071023/en_ ... wling_dc_1

I thought I'd share.


Responding to the controversy that her outing of Dumbledore caused:
Rowling wrote:
It has certainly never been news to me that a brave and brilliant man could love other men.


When asked if her outing of Dumbledore would alienate the portion of her audience who did not approve of homosexuality:
Rowling wrote:
He is my character. He is what he is and I have the right to say what I say about him.


When asked why she didn't out Dumbledore before she did:

Article wrote:
Rowling said she made no revelations about Dumbledore's sexuality before Friday, because she had never before been asked directly.

Rowling wrote:
People wanted so much information in advance of the story, that just to keep my sanity and keep my eye on my own plot, I did not give masses away ahead of time.
Author:  sci-fi greg [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:49 pm ]
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Wait, Rowling said in another article that Neville marries Luna. Jeez, lady, be consistent.

Right here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/#storyContinued

Actually on rereading, it looks like she thought that might work, but was left open. So I guess never mind.
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:13 pm ]
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Of course, none of this matters unless she's planning on doing some further adventures with these characters. I think it'd be cool if she did. Even though the Voldemort Saga is over, she could still do some mystery type stories with Ron and Harry investigating some crimes or something. Who knows?
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:35 pm ]
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I'd love it if she wrote some novellas. Oooh, some auror mysteries would be a great idea, Didymus. I'd most definitely read those.

It'd be really cool if she wrote more HP books and gave the proceeds to charity.
Author:  Chekt [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:30 pm ]
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She said that she is done with HP. Although, she did say at one point that she was thinking of writing a full, Harry Potter Encyclopedia, but I don't know if that will ever be, but I hope so.
Author:  buhubs [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:39 pm ]
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Ugh, If Rowling's not careful, she's gonna go out in a blaze of crap.

Definitely jumping the shark at least a tad, and we neve hear anything like that togetherness with 'Dore and Grimm.

I don't care what you say, it sounds suspicious, especially with all the controversy going around homosexuality.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:42 pm ]
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In the next two years, we will see the Backstory to HP and it will come into full detail.
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:11 pm ]
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Chekt wrote:
She said that she is done with HP. Although, she did say at one point that she was thinking of writing a full, Harry Potter Encyclopedia, but I don't know if that will ever be, but I hope so.


I believe that she said that that she didn't plan on it, but she wouldn't rule out the possibility.

Not that I'm pushing for her to write more HP stuff. I mean, it'd be cool if she did, but I'd love to see her write something different. I know she's going to be writing children's stories next, but I'd love to see her write an adult novel... maybe something in the horror or detective genre.

HP is epic, but it was only her debut work. She still has a lot of growing to do as an author. Ideally, in the long run, HP will be known as Rowlings debut, and something she writes in the future will be her masterpiece. The quality of art is not based on how well it sells.
Author:  That_Guy [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:09 am ]
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Was it just me, or was this obvious? I mean he hired Gilderoy Lockhart and wore a dress!

Good for him though, it must of been tough hiding his secret for all those years.
Author:  Duecex2 [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:09 am ]
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That_Guy wrote:
Was it just me, or was this obvious? I mean he hired Gilderoy Lockhart and wore a dress!

Good for him though, it must of been tough hiding his secret for all those years.


This man wins several internets. Someone recruit him to the wfwf posthaste.
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:23 am ]
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I agree. That_Guy won the thread.
Author:  Dark Grapefruit [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:36 pm ]
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furrykef wrote:
So what was she supposed to do, then? What wouldn't have been a pointless answer?


She could have answered in a way that didn't look so much like attention-seeking. It could have been like this:
"Did Dumbledore love anyone?"
"Yeah, Grindelwald."

The way the transcript reads is more like this"
"Did Dumbledore love anyone?"
"Dumbledore was gay!"
"GASP!"
"So yeah, he loved Grindelwald."

And that's what annoys me about this whole thing.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's the first time I've seen somebody actually have a point when saying Rowling shouldn't have done it like that. Congratulations! *gives cookie* :)

That said, I disagree that the way she said it was really a problem. For one thing, if it really doesn't matter whether or not Dumbledore was gay, then it shouldn't matter if she says it that way. For another thing, it would sound weird if she just mentioned the relationship without making that sort of announcement. Also, her response might not be understood correctly; perhaps the audience would think that she meant a different kind of love, since Dumbledore being gay would sort of be a "does not compute" for some people unless she outright said it. Finally, if she makes it clear enough that he's gay, then it doesn't matter how she says it; the press still would have picked up on it and the same thing would have happened.

- Kef
Author:  KartoonKween'D [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:44 pm ]
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I'm glad that this thread got bumped again, because I found an article that was very interesting. I edited one of my previous posts to include this article (I didn't want to bump this thread so that other threads could have a spotlight), but because this thread got bumped anyway, here it is again.

Seven Clues that Dumbledore is Gay

This is for people who came to the conclusion that Rowling made up Dumbledore being gay on the spot due to the fact that they did not see it coming. I thought that it was an interesting article and worth discussing.

Maybe Dumbledore being gay didn't have any literary merit. I don't really think of it in terms of "literary merit", I think of it in terms of "the character was that way just because he was". It certainly didn't have any literary demerit. I have a Thespian mentality: know the characters as well as possible.
Author:  The Noid [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:24 pm ]
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I don't wanna sign up for one article so can somebody post it here?
Author:  Lunar Jesty [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:43 pm ]
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Sure, here you go.

Quote:
The Potter-verse was thrown for a loop when author J.K. Rowling announced she had always imagined one of the main characters in the "Harry Potter" series -- Albus Dumbledore -- to be gay.

Even the most diligent "Harry Potter" scholars found themselves caught unaware. But could anyone have seen this coming? Did Rowling leave any clues in the book?

To find out we called Andrew Slack, head of the Harry Potter Alliance, an organization that uses online organizing to mobilize more than 100,000 Harry Potter fans around social justice issues, drawing on parallels from the book. Slack is incredibly fluent in "Potter" textual analysis, and we knew that if anyone could predict Rowling's curveball, it would be him.

Speaking from his home in Boston, Slack said he hadn't guessed that Dumbledore was gay, but in hindsight, he was able to point to specific character traits of the Hogwarts headmaster that might have indicated his sexual orientation.

Below he tells us seven textual clues that Dumbledore was gay.

1. His pet. "Fawkes, the many-colored phoenix, is 'flaming.'"

2. His name. "While the anagram to 'Tom Marvolo Riddle' is 'I am Lord Voldemort,' as my good friend pointed out, 'Albus Dumbledore' becomes 'Male bods rule, bud!'"

3. His fashion sense. "Whether it's his 'purple cloak and high-heeled boots,' a 'flamboyantly cut suit of plum velvet,' a flowered bonnet at Christmas or his fascination with knitting patterns, Dumbledore defies the fashion standards of normative masculinity and, of course, this gives him a flair like no other. It's no wonder that even the uppity portrait of former headmaster Phineas Nigellus announced, 'You cannot deny he's got style.'"

4. His sensitivity. "Leaders like Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour and Dolores Umbridge (yes, even a woman) who are limited by the standards of normative masculinity could not fully embrace where Voldemort was weakest: in his capacity to love. Dumbledore understood that it's tougher to be vulnerable, to express one's feelings, and that one's undying love for friends and for life itself is a more powerful weapon than fear. Even his most selfish moments in pursuing the Deathly Hallows were motivated either by his feelings for Grindelwald or his wish to apologize to his late sister."

5. His openness. "After she outed Dumbledore, Rowling said that she viewed the whole series as a prolonged treatise on tolerance. Dumbledore is the personification of this. Like the LGBT community that has time and again used its own oppression to fight for the equality of others, Dumbledore was a champion for the rights of werewolves, giants, house elves, muggle-borns, centaurs, merpeople -- even alternative marriage. When it came time to decide whether the marriage between Lupin the werewolf and Tonks the full-blooded witch could be considered natural, Professor Minerva McGonagall said, 'Dumbledore would have been happier than anybody to think that there was a little more love in the world.'"

6. His historical parallel. "If Dumbledore were like any one in history, it would have to be Leonardo DaVinci. They both were considered eccentric geniuses ('He's a genius! Best wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes'); both added a great deal to our body of knowledge (after all, Dumbledore did discover the 12 uses of dragon's blood!); both were solitary, both were considered warm, loving and incredibly calm; both dwelt in mysterious mystical realms; both spent a lot of time with their journals (Leonardo wrote his backwards while Dumbledore was constantly diving into his pensieve); both even had long hair! And, of course, a popular thought among many scholars is that the maestro Leonardo was gay."

7. The fact that so few of us realized he was gay. "No matter how many 'clues' I can put down that Dumbledore was gay, no matter how many millions of people have read these books again and again, Rowling surprised even the most die-hard fans with the announcement that Dumbledore was gay. And in the end, the fact that we never would have guessed is what makes Dumbledore being gay so real. So many times I have encountered friends who are gay that I never would have predicted. It has shown me that one's sexual orientation is not some obvious 'lifestyle choice,' it's a precious facet of our multi-faceted personalities. And in the end whatever the differences between our personalities are, it is time that our world heeds Dumbledore's advice: 'Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' Today as I write this, I believe that it's time for our aims to be loyal to what the greatest wizard in the world would have wanted them to be: love."


Uh, sure. These aren't so much "signs" as "look how witty I am, guys!" Still, I don't have a problem with it, and I think it's a good thing. More people from all sexualities will realize it's a "so what?" thing.
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