He was never black; he just got a suntan.
Okay, back to Serious Business.
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| Tokenism http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12711 |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Tokenism |
When writing for TV/movies/whatever, I think tokenism is a difficult thing to handle... for one thing, it's hard to define. Was Lando in Star Wars a token black character, for example? (I just looked up Lando, and Wikipedia claims that George Lucas created him when he went to see Richard Pryor in concert, who said that "white folks just wrote us out of the future", and Lucas realized there were no black people in A New Hope.) Sometimes it really does suck. Everybody knows the stereotype of the black guy dying first in certain kinds of movies. Writing a movie that way anymore, unless you're specifically parodying the stereotype, is not only offensive, but just plain bad writing. So hopefully that idea's on its way out. And, although I like Kevin Smith and his films, it does seem absurd that in one scene of Dogma, we have a boardroom full of vile executives, whom Loki executes one by one with a handgun for their sins (which, being a fallen angel, he somehow knows about)... but when he reaches the last one -- the one woman in the room -- he can't think of anything except "you didn't say 'God bless you' when I sneezed", and he doesn't kill her. (Well, he was going to, but he shrugged it off when his buddy shouted "Loki!") The difficult thing is that sometimes a character is important, perhaps even very important, but he's still the only major [insert race/characteristic here] in the story. For instance, in the Dumbledore is gay thread (and elsewhere), it's been suggested that making Dumbledore (and only Dumbledore) gay smacks of tokenism, even though Dumbledore is vital to the story in every way and doesn't exhibit the slightest hint of gay stereotypes unless you're going out of your way to look for them. Of course, nobody's claiming that Dumbledore is on the whole a token character, but rather that the 'gay' part is a token attribute. But here's the thing: under that sort of definition, you can call pretty much anything tokenism if it only involves one character other than the main character. Yes, we do need more non-stereotypical black/Asian/female/gay/etc. guys in lead roles, but I don't think that means that it's tokenism every time a character just happens to be black/Asian/female/gay/etc. The problem there isn't with any one individual movie or series, but really the industry as a whole. What are your thoughts on tokenism? - Kef |
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| Author: | Einoo T. Spork [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:19 am ] |
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Lando doesn't count as a token character, because even if that story is true (which it probably is) Lando is frickin' AWESOME. I say as long as the character isn't obviously just there to fill some sort of quota, it's fine. I could flesh that statement out a bit more but I can't think of anything. Besides, I have a short attention span and I reckon a lot of you do too. |
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| Author: | KartoonKween'D [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:29 am ] |
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Thanks for making this thread, Kef. Tokenism, in my opinion, is a way for producers to protect their hides. They try to be politically correct, which is a dangerous thing for individuals without a trace of cultural sensitivity to attempt. Often, it just leans to characters which are either bland and boring or which ludicrously stereotype the group of people it portrays. |
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| Author: | Rusty [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:34 am ] |
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I see no problem with tokenism because a lot of things (especially things that aren't live action) just have a lot of freakin' white people in them. Black guy jokes, Gay jokes (not so much these, but just because they're overused), Girl jokes. If they are jokes, they're fine, and sometimes really funny. |
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| Author: | Duecex2 [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yeah, Tokenism sucks when it's being used just for the sake of having racial diversity to prevent controversy, but is quite humorous when used for satrical purposes - like that of the character "Token Black" on South Park. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:57 am ] |
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Duecex2 wrote: Yeah, Tokenism sucks when it's being used just for the sake of having racial diversity to prevent controversy, but is quite humorous when used for satrical purposes - like that of the character "Token Black" on South Park.
I was just going to post this. I love that the black kid on South Park is named Token. Genius. And yeah, if you insert a character just because he's black/white/Jewish/Christian/a man/a woman/a Muslim/deaf/gay or whatever, you're not doing anyone a favor. The world is diverse. Be realistic in your depictions of the world and you'll be fine because you'll naturally include diversity. Characters will be fleshed out and real and happen to be [insert race, religion, gender, whatever]. And that's fine. |
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| Author: | The Noid [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:47 am ] |
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Uh your Lando poit doesn't count because it takes place in the past not in the future. 2 demerits. Anyways, Tokens can be done correctly if they aren't sterotypes. If there's only ONE main black character or ONE fat guy, I don't mind it. Also his name wasn't Token at first I think but yeah, that is genius. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:26 am ] |
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The Noid wrote: Uh your Lando poit doesn't count because it takes place in the past not in the future. 2 demerits. Give them to Lucas, not to me. If indeed Wikipedia is correct in the first place (no source was cited). The Noid wrote: Also his name wasn't Token at first I think but yeah, that is genius.
Actually, it was. His name was originally Token Williams, but it was later changed to Token Black. - Kef |
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| Author: | That_Guy [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:27 am ] |
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In Kill Bill, the black chick was killed first, but if you put it in chronological order she wasn't. Good way of getting around it. Quentin Tarintino, almost as cool as Michael. |
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| Author: | Dark Grapefruit [ Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:55 pm ] |
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I can't find it right now, but I read an interview recently with Masi Oka (Hiro on Heroes) where he said that it was really easy for him to pad his Hollywood resume with bit parts before Heroes. Why? Because whenever there's a call for a character that only has a few lines, directors often look for a visible minority just to look diverse. :\ So yeah, token role casting is alive and well. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:26 am ] |
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Hey, that just reminded me of something. Did you know that Waylon Smithers was black in the first episode of The Simpsons? [EDIT: It was actually the third episode, but the first one he appeared in.] He still had the same voice though. Here's a screenshot that Wikipedia happened to have: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... ithers.jpg Apparently what happened was that Matt Groening and the main writers never intended the character to be black, but one of the staff members was "diversifying" the cast (the word "diverse" was what reminded me of this). They decided to go ahead with changing him to white because a white sycophant is a funnier idea than a black one, not to mention that a black guy who kisses his white boss's behind doesn't exactly have good racial overtones. - Kef |
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| Author: | ChickenLeg [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:16 pm ] |
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He was never black; he just got a suntan.
Okay, back to Serious Business. |
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| Author: | Schmelen [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:33 pm ] |
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If we stop worrying about racism so much, maybe it won't be so much of an issue... I dunno. I'm just sick of talking about it. What can we do other than forget the past and concentrate on the future? If we teach people that tokenism is bad and racism is bad, it will exist. It never ends. |
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| Author: | lahimatoa [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:30 pm ] |
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Schmelen wrote: If we stop worrying about racism so much, maybe it won't be so much of an issue... I dunno. I'm just sick of talking about it.
What can we do other than forget the past and concentrate on the future? If we teach people that tokenism is bad and racism is bad, it will exist. It never ends. I concur. The more Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton screech about race, the more it'll be an issue. Can't we all treat each other well and be judged on our merits rather than the color of our skin? |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:39 pm ] |
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I used to have that opinion... but I really don't think it works. The voices of white supremacists will still exist, because of course they won't buy into that idea. Now, imagine a world where everybody stopped mentioning race except the white supremacists. Who's going to win, then? Who's going to be the voice of reason to counter their voice of hate? I'm not saying that guys like Al Sharpton are always right; the point is that ignoring race won't solve problems. - Kef |
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| Author: | Schmelen [ Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:41 am ] |
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I can't think of any other way that won't include a lot of decades of... sorting stuff out. But yeah. That's the human race for you. You're right. I know a really racist guy. He's actually really nice... And very clever. Just really racist. Ah well. |
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| Author: | sci-fi greg [ Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Duecex2 wrote: Yeah, Tokenism sucks when it's being used just for the sake of having racial diversity to prevent controversy, but is quite humorous when used for satrical purposes - like that of the character "Token Black" on South Park.
Or Black Steve on Code Monkeys. |
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| Author: | Einoo T. Spork [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
sci-fi greg wrote: Code Monkeys.
... People actually WATCH that show?! |
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| Author: | Silent [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: I know a really racist guy. He's actually really nice... And very clever. Just really racist. Ah well.
Same here. Though you can always love the person and disagree with their political beliefs, but of course, not bring it up. Don't bring up huge disagreements. In fact, I think it brings up an important point: Racist people are not evil. Don't be racist towards racists. *** I love "tokenism" by the way. It's awesome grist for the political satirist. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:52 pm ] |
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I can't be friends with racists, really. If you're a racist, you're not a nice guy, period. There might be nice things about you, but you're not a nice guy. Also, the negative influence of racists can be very insidious, even if you're steadfastly opposed to racism. They're not worth hanging around. - Kef |
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| Author: | StrongRad [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Silent wrote: Don't be racist towards racists.
Umm... If you hate someone because they're racist, that's not racist. Unless, of course, you hate them because they're white/black/asian/latin/arabic and racist. If you're intolerant of intolerant people, it's a bit hypocritical, but there's nothing wrong with being a little hypocritical if you realize the existence and nature of your hypocrisy. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:06 pm ] |
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Actually, I see nothing hypocritical about disliking someone based on immoral ideologies they hold and/or propagate. Disliking someone based entirely on skin color is inherently wrong. Disliking someone based on their immoral behavior just makes sense. But at the same time, showing someone like that some genuine compassion might actually make a difference. I remember a news story from several years ago about a rabbi whose family was being harassed by the KKK. Turns out, the KKK leader in that area was a guy in a wheelchair. So the rabbi started helping him - getting his groceries, taking him to the doctor, that sort of stuff. The guy was so impressed, he ended up renouncing the Klan and joined the rabbi's synagogue. Yes, compassion DOES occasionally work. |
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| Author: | Parlod [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Tokenism. Puh, I never liked them elves and orcs and little people running around with magic rings and whatnot. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:12 am ] |
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Does anybody notice how every DreamWorks CGI movie has a "black" character?... |
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| Author: | The Zephyr Song [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Really? |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:04 am ] |
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Hai guys, I'm the token black guy thats supposed to be posted once per page so that way it doesn't look like this is a forum full of honkies and kanuks. |
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| Author: | Zoologist! [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:04 am ] |
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IantheGecko wrote: Does anybody notice how every DreamWorks CGI movie has a "black" character?...
Not Madagascar™! Then again, that movie didn't have white character's either... |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:15 am ] |
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Zoologist! wrote: IantheGecko wrote: Does anybody notice how every DreamWorks CGI movie has a "black" character?... Not Madagascar™! Then again, that movie didn't have white character's either... |
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| Author: | Capt. Ido Nos [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:09 am ] |
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Okay, I have a question. Did anyone else notice that in Transformers the autobot Jazz, the robot with a rather stereotypical Black voice that I'm not sure is original to him before the movie, is the first robot to die? |
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| Author: | Schmelen [ Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:15 am ] |
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Capt. Ido Nos wrote: Okay, I have a question.
Did anyone else notice that in Transformers the autobot Jazz, the robot with a rather stereotypical Black voice that I'm not sure is original to him before the movie, is the first robot to die? RACIST!!!!!! |
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