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| Gospel reductionism http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12752 |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Gospel reductionism |
Kef's note: This thread was split from this thread. Duecex2 wrote: anyway, Christians tend to be very nice and helpful people if they aren't pressing religion on you, which isn't very often.
I think that when "Christains" press their "Religion" on other people they are either A) non-christians that think they are christian because they go to church every sunday OR B ) fanatics that are quick to judge people and if they are doing somthing bad and they say"well your going to burn in your sins in HELL for eternity!!!!". Because if they are True Christains they have truly accepted Jesus as thier Lord and Savior and belive it in their heart, mind and soul. True Christains don't have a Religion they have a loving relationship with Jesus and they aren't quick to judge because Jesus has forgaven them (just because they are Christains doesn't mean they are Better-than-you-Holy-people) Jesus has shown true love to the world, he came down in form of a human man, and lived a sinlesslife, and died for your sins and mine too. So True Christains don't throw their "Religion" at you, True Christains show their realationship with Jesus by showing people the love that Jesus has gaven them. |
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| Author: | Duecex2 [ Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:46 pm ] |
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year_old_candy wrote: non-christians that think they are christian because they go to church every sunday
Hey, dude. I'm agnostic and I still go to St. James the Apostle Catholic Church every Sunday. Mainly because I don't want to tell my mom because it isn't worth the drama, and church ain't that bad. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:09 am ] |
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I said... Quote: I think that when "Christains" press their "Religion" on other people they are either A) non-christians that think they are christian because they go to church every sunday
Do you throw your "religion" at other people? if not, that qoute has nothing to do with you 
God bless you, Drew |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:11 am ] |
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Quote: True Christains don't have a Religion they have a loving relationship with Jesus and they aren't quick to judge because Jesus has forgaven them (just because they are Christains doesn't mean they are Better-than-you-Holy-people) Jesus has shown true love to the world, he came down in form of a human man, and lived a sinlesslife, and died for your sins and mine too. So True Christains don't throw their "Religion" at you, True Christains show their realationship with Jesus by showing people the love that Jesus has gaven them.
I beg to differ. Christians do have a relationship with Jesus Christ, but it is a relationship that is based on Word and Sacrament, and a common confession of the Triune God. These things are the "religion" of which people typically speak, and I would advice you not in any way to denounce them. They are gifts of God for your benefit. I see all this "relationship, not religion" language as little more than an attempt to supplant the objective proclamation of God's Word and administration of His Sacraments with subjective emotionalism. But emotionalism is not the Christian faith. The Christian faith is the objective reality of the cross. It is Christ crucified. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:20 am ] |
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Belive what you want but, no it's not...but Jesus still loves you, Me and the world!,YAY!  ... 
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:27 am ] |
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You don't know your Scriptures very well, do you? Can you show me in the Word where it says "relationship"? I can certainly show you plenty of places where it says Word, Cross, Baptize, Eat/Drink, and other terms that point to Word and Sacrament being a central element in the Christian life. The only "relationship" I have ever seen the Bible speak of a Christian having is that of a repentant sinner to whom the sacrifice of Christ is applied for the sake of forgiveness. In other words, that relationship is the Cross itself, without which there is no relationship. Also, telling me to "believe what I want" doesn't exactly constitute a sound argument that I'm wrong. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but I can't help but feel that the thoughts you expressed show a very immature understanding of the Christian faith. And for that reason, I challenge you: study the Scriptures and see what they have to say on the subject. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:01 am ] |
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hey Didymus? just curious, are you a Christian?...like truly? |
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| Author: | StrongRad [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:02 am ] |
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year_old_candy wrote: hey Didymus? just curious, are you a Christian?...like truly?
He's a minister. Pastor of a church, too. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 am ] |
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Yes. And furthermore, I am also a called and ordained servant of God's Word. With a Master of Divinity degree. And I'm pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Cleveland, MS. Dag. Rad beat me to it. |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:03 am ] |
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A Lutheran, in particular. EDIT: Wow. Triple simulposted. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:30 am ] |
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Well, I am a 16 year old Californian boy who is saved by the grace of Jesus . I am not a Theologian, teacher, minister heck I'm not even graduated from high school yet!  , But what I do know that once I was so lost and so blind but now I can see, Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wrech like me. this is more than just a song John 3:16
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:51 am ] |
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I do have very little patience with "gospel reductionism", though. While I would concur that the Christian faith IS a relationship with Christ, I have to remind you that it is a relationship that looks like a blood-stained cross, and God's people constantly being joined to that cross by way of Word and Sacrament, both of which are an integral part of the life of a Christian according to the Scripture. And what we call Word and Sacrament ministry look an awful lot like what most people are referring to when they speak of "religion". If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck... But to me, the "relationship" language people use often sounds to me like they're downplaying the importance of Word and Sacrament in the life of a Christian. These things are God's gifts to us, for our benefit. I'd think that Christians would want to uphold them and give thanks for them, rather than pushing them aside as unimportant. It may not have been your intent to communicate that, but most Christians I encounter who speak that way typically do. To summarize, to say that Christianity is a relationship with Christ, that's fine and dandy as long as we remember that the cross, Christ's suffering and death, are the center of it, and that Word and Sacrament are what connect us to him in it. However, I feel that saying the Christian faith is not a religion is not really an honest assessment of the life of faith that our God calls us to live. |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:17 pm ] |
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Okay, is this about who has more e-points with God-Online or is this about the moral/immoral stance of Pornography? |
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| Author: | Capt. Ido Nos [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:36 pm ] |
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No one's trying to build up brownie points or anything, Cola, they're just stating what they believe. Actually Didy, I wouldn't be so quick to knock y_o_c there. As fresh out of high school as I am, I can only wish that there were more that held that same attitude as this dude right here. Way too many times have I personally seen kids turned away from Christianity because they viewed it as too much religion, and to have peers with strong faith who still impart the same message while not also bearing the legalistic appearance they are so used to seeing is a blessing. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:58 pm ] |
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Christianity without Word and Sacrament ministry is not Christianity at all, but rather an emotionalistic perversion of it. You say you hate seeing young people turned from the faith? So do I. But I've also seen plenty of young people who say they love Jesus and live like total pagans, too. But they think they're justified in their unchristian living because they "have a relationship with Jesus". So I disagree: gospel reductionism may be appealing, but it perverts the faith. It is not true Christianity. Or to put it another way, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions" (2 Timothy 4:3). And this isn't legalism: no one said anything about being saved by works of the Law. I'm speaking specifically about being saved by grace through faith, which is not of yourselves, but a gift from God. That grace is mediated through the Word ("Faith comes by hearing"), through Holy Baptism ("Baptism now saves you"), and through Holy Communion ("I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever"). These are gifts of God, given to us for our benefit. It stands to reason that, if neglected or ignored, then the benefit of them is lost. And I will clarify once more: if his (or your) intent is to say that one can live a Christian life apart from these means of grace, then I must respond that you do not understand the faith. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:00 am ] |
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Hey Didymus, I just had to give you these videos, thier you and me! try to be more of the Christ follower from these videos. But I hate the ending picture to ALL of them the ones that say "Chiristain no more" they ruin a good video that way...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RtfNdg1fQk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYdD-Qc7lbY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRiijctGcAY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIXDLUUn830 They are awsome!!!!! so awesome I could do a dance 
Jesus Loves you all! Y_O_C |
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| Author: | HHFOV [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:52 am ] |
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Y_O_C, did you even read any of Didymus's posts? Your mindless reassertion of your points does you no good when you're arguing against someone with educated, personal credibility and sources to back them up. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:03 am ] |
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year_old_candy wrote: Hey Didymus, I just had to give you these videos, thier you and me!
try to be more of the Christ follower from these videos. Why don't you try to be more of a Christ follower from THIS? Seriously, YOC, don't try to feed me any of this gospel reductionism. I have been a follower of our Lord Jesus Christ probably for longer than you've even been alive. Furthermore, I am a called and ordained servant of God's Word. Which means I follow Christ by doing exactly what I see him do in the Gospels: preach, teach, and administer the Sacraments. If you wish to instruct me as a follower of Christ, I expect you to do so on the basis of knowledge of God's Word, not from some cleverly constructed videos intended to water down my faith and turn me into another watered-down Jesus hippie. If you cannot instruct me from the Word, then my suggestion to you is to back off. Come back when you have some knowledge and wisdom of your own with which you can instruct me. In other words, YOC, grow up. If you were as much of a follower of Christ as you claim to be, I would have expected you to show more respect for those who are older, wiser, and more knowledgeable of the faith than you. I commend you for your zeal for the faith, but you lack both knowledge and wisdom. Also, as a side note, the technique they are using in those videos is properly referred to as a "straw man". The "Christian" guy is a gross exaggeration, and is in no way a representation of my expression of faith. These videos essentially make this guy up so they can ridicule mainstream Christians, when the reality is I know very few people who look or act like that at all. Honestly, I can't help but feel the authors of these videos are being very judgmental and hypocritical of mainstream Christianity. They present a false image of the Church so they can tear it down with their "Christ Follower". Perhaps it is they who need to learn to be the Christ Followers they claim to be. Plus, what I find hilarious is that, if you knew me IRL, you'd probably think I was that second guy. |
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| Author: | year_old_candy [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:42 am ] |
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first , if you want to get a bibley an stuff check out these verses Quote: James 5:9 - Don't keep complaining and grumbling about each other, or you will come under judgement. the times in which we live demand that we be prepared to die for the lord
Romans 3: 27 Then what becomes of pride and boasting? It is excluded, What of principle and doing good deed? No. Being right with God stops all bragging Jesus Loves you! Y_O_C |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:16 am ] |
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At least now you're making an attempt. You're bringing the Word to bear, which is a dramatic improvement over what you were doing before. Quote: James 5:9 - Don't keep complaining and grumbling about each other, or you will come under judgement. the times in which we live demand that we be prepared to die for the lord But you see, this is exactly what I felt those videos were doing. Rather than offering a healthy alternative to the legalistic "Christian" guy, these videos instead used this caricature as a way to belittle mainstream Christianity. I particularly felt as though it was an attempt to belittle my own faith, which is firmly grounded in the ministry of Word and Sacrament. But what did it offer as a remedy? I couldn't help but notice that the "Christ follower" guy had very little to say, and, in fact, very little to do. He was just sort of there. What's his message? Does he even have one? The mind boggles. As for my own responses to you, I do not consider what I was doing either complaining or grumbling, but instructing. I saw that your own understanding of the faith appeared to be lacking, and I did exactly as a servant of God should do: challenge you on it. And considering that now you are bringing the Word of God to bear into our conversation, I can only surmise that the challenge worked. (please note the avatar). Quote: Romans 3: 27 Then what becomes of pride and boasting? It is excluded, What of principle and doing good deed? No. Being right with God stops all bragging
I think your translation is a bit off there. A more accurate translation would read: "Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith." I am, of course, referring to that very last phrase there. Pistews in Greek means "faith." Granted, it is faith (that is, trusting the Lord and his Word) that make us right with God, but let us be careful that we do not confuse the benefit with its source. When the Greek speaks of "being right with God," the term typically used there is dikaiosune, "righteousness." This passage speaks a great deal about being dikaios, but it also says the way it happens is through pistews. Oh, and believe me, there are very few Christians who understand this passage better than us Lutherans. We do not even believe that faith is something that we do, but rather a gift from God that comes to us through his Word (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:17). His Word reveals to us Christ, and by trusting that Word, we are thereby joined to him in the cross. So what does this mean? It means that, if you wish to be right with God, you need the Word. You need that Word to reveal Christ to you, to work faith in you, to connect you to Christ on the cross. So far from diminishing the necessity of the ministry of Word and Sacrament, this passage actually shows us our need for it. Jesus said, "IF you abide in my Word, THEN you are truly my disciples" (John 8:31). Jesus makes it plain: to be his disciple (follower) means to abide in his Word. To be instructed in his Word. To grow in his Word. To trust in his Word. Oh, and one more thing: I have already asked Kef to split off our conversation into another thread, but just for future references, when people start saying "Toastpaint," what they're really trying to say is, "This is way off topic. Could you please discuss it elsewhere?" Christ gave up his life for you. P.S.: someone sent me this RECENT ARTICLE on the Church Growth movement (which I have always considered to be the epitome of gospel reductionism). Basically, the big-time Church Growth Gurus are starting to have to reevaluate their strategies because they're not working. My thought: Word and Sacrament ministry is a perfect remedy to their problem. |
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| Author: | Parlod [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:03 pm ] |
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Jesus thought religion/church was important. If he didn't, then he wouldn't have set up an organization, with apostles and bishops and teachers and ordinary disciples. If he would've thought that religion wasn't important, he wouldn't have instituted Baptism and the Sacrament. Read Acts 2:38-47. |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:24 pm ] |
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Anyone else think the Bible was just a comentary about the way things were going at the time it was written? Kinda like a few points in The Divine Comedy, and the whole of The Crucible? |
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| Author: | Parlod [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:50 pm ] |
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote: Anyone else think the Bible was just a comentary about the way things were going at the time it was written?
Of course it was. My point was that in this "commentary," Christ saw that an organization of His followers was very important. He's never said anything about a change of policy since then. |
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| Author: | Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:19 pm ] |
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Parlod wrote: Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote: Anyone else think the Bible was just a comentary about the way things were going at the time it was written? Of course it was. My point was that in this "commentary," Christ saw that an organization of His followers was very important. He's never said anything about a change of policy since then. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:23 pm ] |
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Cola, just out of curiosity, have you spent much time reading the Gospels or the writings of the Apostles? While they certainly contain commentary on the times, they also include instruction about the life and faith of the Church, with an emphasis that such faith and life continue to be taught and observed. Granted, there is much that is spoken of in those writings that are not very popular today, but I would contend that if someone wishes to be a follower of Christ, they are still obligated to learn them and keep them. And, no, I do not concur with your assessment that this was some poetical work that has been mistaken as religious history. For one thing, if you actually read the different writings of the New Testament, you might note that each individual writer has his own unique style. For example, take John's very simple use of Greek with Luke's highly articulate use of the language. Or the difference between them and the writings of St. Paul. Or St. Mark. No, the Gospels themselves claim to be a history of the time; they are written in historic prose, not in epic poetic form that was the norm of "fiction" and "myth" of those days. Take these words in the opening of St. Luke: Quote: Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were, eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.
To paraphrase: "I am writing history, not mere stories." Oh, and one more point: if you were to compare the Gospels to, say, The Divine Comedy, you might note that Dante is writing in an epic poetic style (i.e., intended to be a fictional account), whereas the Gospels are written in the form of historical narrative. You might also note that The Crucible was written as a play (i.e., a drama to be performed). You can actually learn a lot about a document's purpose just by taking a look at its literary genre. |
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| Author: | Vitruvian Dude [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:27 pm ] |
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Hey, what if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on a bus, trying to make His way home? |
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| Author: | Parlod [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:33 pm ] |
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Then we better make sure we treat everyone with respect and love. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:34 pm ] |
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Vitruvian Dude wrote: Hey, what if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on a bus, trying to make His way home?
AHEM. |
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| Author: | Duecex2 [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:49 pm ] |
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It's a song, guys. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:51 pm ] |
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I know. Still... |
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