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Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:53 am ]
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Rusty wrote:
Didymus wrote:
As stated before, it is irrelevant. If you want to start a thread on cannibalism, go ahead. But for the time being, I have already demonstrated the distinguishing difference between humans and lesser animals. Therefore your question has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.


Why can't you just answer the question? It's hypothetical, it's not to be taken seriously as cannibalism.

I don't know about Dids, but if I absolutely had to, I'd like to think I would.
I know I'd kill another person to protect my life. I'd say the whole not starving would probably fall under "protect my life".

Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:53 am ]
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StrongRad wrote:
There are people who will shout "ZOMG SUPERMARKET!!" type things at hunters. I often wonder why a dude two cubicles over from me (who gardens) uses the "SUPERMARKET!" argument against hunters.

The meat you get in a supermarket is likely to have a lot more cruelty behind it than hunted meat, too. At least the hunted animals got a lifetime of freedom before ending up dinner.

I don't eat meat most times. But I will eat meat from wild animals.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:53 am ]
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I don't already know the answer. I want to know if Didy divides things solely on if they are rational or not.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:54 am ]
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Inverse Tiger wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
There are people who will shout "ZOMG SUPERMARKET!!" type things at hunters. I often wonder why a dude two cubicles over from me (who gardens) uses the "SUPERMARKET!" argument against hunters.

The meat you get in a supermarket is likely to have a lot more cruelty behind it than hunted meat, too. At least the hunted animals got a lifetime of freedom before ending up dinner.

That's what I've been trying to tell him.
He is one of those holier than thou types that thinks that he's better than hunters since someone else kills his food for him.

He puts down hunters for killing something they could just buy at the store, yet he grows things in a garden that he could just buy at the store.

Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:58 am ]
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Rusty wrote:
I don't already know the answer. I want to know if Didy divides things solely on if they are rational or not.

We already had an argument about the difference between humans and animals in here. It was really tedious and not worth revisiting.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:59 am ]
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StrongRad wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Didymus wrote:
As stated before, it is irrelevant. If you want to start a thread on cannibalism, go ahead. But for the time being, I have already demonstrated the distinguishing difference between humans and lesser animals. Therefore your question has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.


Why can't you just answer the question? It's hypothetical, it's not to be taken seriously as cannibalism.

I don't know about Dids, but if I absolutely had to, I'd like to think I would.
I know I'd kill another person to protect my life. I'd say the whole not starving would probably fall under "protect my life".


There we go, that's kind of what I was looking for.

I would be inclined to agree with this. If humans were switched with deer, and I was a deer, would I kill a human with the knowledge of what they were before they were switched with deer? The answer is yes.

Although I'm not sure that's what you were getting at, I agree with you.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:00 am ]
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Rusty wrote:
I don't already know the answer.

Rusty wrote:
And I pretty much know the answer to that.

Image

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:05 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
Humans are rational creatures. Deer are not. Big difference.

So here's a good question for you: if you're so convinced that there should be no distinction between rational creatures and lesser ones, have you ever stepped on a cockroach? Have you ever killed a bee? Or a fly? If so, then you are just as guilty as those you dislike because they kill deer.

If you replace the words "Deer," "Humans," and the second use of "Rational Creatures" and "Lesser ones" with minorities, you get the propaganda every dictator, who ever wanted to commit a genocide against a particular race, has ever used.

Just pointing that out.

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:06 am ]
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Rusty, did you just PWN yourself?

No, rationality is not the only distinction between humanity and lesser animals. Nevertheless, it is a significant one. As stated before, some of the most brilliant minds in history will concur that there is a distinction between human beings and other animals on the basis of that.

But Cola, we're not talking about minorities. We're talking about the distinction between different types of creatures entirely. The fact is, every dictator that argued that one race or another was lesser on account of being a different race is demonstrably wrong in that regard anyway.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:10 am ]
Post subject: 

StrongRad wrote:
Rusty wrote:
I don't already know the answer.

Rusty wrote:
And I pretty much know the answer to that.

Image


There were two different questions, one which I knew the answer to, the other one I didn't.

Quote:
If you replace the words "Deer," "Humans," and the second use of "Rational Creatures" and "Lesser ones" with minorities, you get the propaganda every dictator, who ever wanted to commit a genocide against a particular race, has ever used.

Just pointing that out.


Yess.

Quote:
No, rationality is not the only distinction between humanity and lesser animals. Nevertheless, it is a significant one. As stated before, some of the most brilliant minds in history will concur that there is a distinction between human beings and other animals on the basis of that.


Look, you can tell me that every person in the world believes something, I'm not going to just cave in because the majority of them think something different than I do.

Quote:
Rusty, did you just PWN yourself?


No.

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:12 am ]
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Quote:
Look, you can tell me that every person in the world believes something, I'm not going to just cave in because the majority of them think something different than I do.

If you say so.

Nevertheless, there is most certainly a rational distinction between humans and lesser animals which you'd be very hard-pressed to refute. Other people in history have noted that difference. Therefore, your argument that the distinction is purely a "religious bias" has been adequately refuted.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:14 am ]
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I didn't say that, but you do have a religious bias.

I would quote the post, but it feels useless to.

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:17 am ]
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So what if I am religiously biased? It doesn't refute my point.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:17 am ]
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No, but it's a reason that you think the way you do.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:18 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
But Cola, we're not talking about deer. We're talking about the distinction between different types of people entirely. The fact is, every hunter that argued that one being or another was lesser on account of being a different species is demonstrably wrong in that regard anyway.
Still so very easy to switch words to make it seem like propaganda.[size=0]BTW, this is no attack on you or your beliefs, its just pointing out the fact that your wording can be switched with other things and used against you. But whatever, its happened to me before.[/size]

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:23 am ]
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Rationalizing someone's thought process is a logical fallacy. I forget exactly what it's called, but you can't just say, "You're only saying that because you believe ______." I have my reasons for believing as I do. Nevertheless, there are others who do not believe everything that I do who would concur with my conclusions.

Our national laws, for one thing. It is not a crime punishable by death to hunt and kill an animal (although doing so without a license or under the wrong conditions can incur fines). But it is a crime to kill another human being.

Once again, I do have to point out that your hypothetical extreme situations, by which you hoped to trap me into contradicting myself, are irrelevant. The rational distinction between human beings as a whole and lesser animals still remains. Religious biases not withstanding.

Quote:
Still so very easy to switch words to make it seem like propaganda.

Cola, this isn't a word game. If we were playing word games, we could just as easily replace "deer" with "ice cream bars" and "lesser animals" with "Jello Pudding Pops". But we're not. It is a discussion with clearly defined terms, here. The term "lesser animals" does not include "minorities" as a potential referent. Only someone insane would take that direction. That has already been established.

Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:30 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
Cola, this isn't a word game. If we were playing word games, we could just as easily replace "deer" with "ice cream bars" and "lesser animals" with "Jello Pudding Pops". But we're not. It is a discussion with clearly defined terms, here. The term "lesser animals" does not include "minorities" as a potential referent. Only someone insane would take that direction. That has already been established.
You heard it from his mouth! He wants to KILL Ice cream bars and Jello Pudding Pops!

Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:31 am ]
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Well this thread looks like it's on the verge of spiraling out of control so I might as well get my two cents in.


I'm not against hunting for food or for sport. Out by me, there is a rampant deer population(I nearly hit one once or twice a week) and no natural predators. I have no issue killing an animal for sport. In my opinion whatever you do for entertainment is none of my business. Plus I rather see a deer head on a wall than on the hood of my car.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 am ]
Post subject: 

Didymus wrote:
Rationalizing someone's thought process is a logical fallacy. I forget exactly what it's called, but you can't just say, "You're only saying that because you believe ______." I have my reasons for believing as I do. Nevertheless, there are others who do not believe everything that I do who would concur with my conclusions.

Our national laws, for one thing. It is not a crime punishable by death to hunt and kill an animal (although doing so without a license or under the wrong conditions can incur fines). But it is a crime to kill another human being.

Once again, I do have to point out that your hypothetical extreme situations, by which you hoped to trap me into contradicting myself, are irrelevant. The rational distinction between human beings as a whole and lesser animals still remains. Religious biases not withstanding.


You are SO frustrating.

I said it was one of the many reasons. I didn't say it was JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE (although if you wanted to be broad, then yes, it is, but not in a religion sense).

And what did I say about me agreeing with people? I don't really care what the law says - the law is based on things that I don't believe in. So just because the law says it's okay doesn't mean it's okay to me.

I'm not trying to trap you. I'm trying to understand some people condone, and endorse, the killing of animals that, without us, would live.

In the whole, I guess it's necessary, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:37 am ]
Post subject: 

Rusty wrote:
I'm not trying to trap you. I'm trying to understand some people condone, and endorse, the killing of animals that, without us, would live.

It's nature. Some things eat other things.
For that thing to be eaten, it has to die.
That's just the way it goes.
It's nature.

Quote:
In the whole, I guess it's necessary, but that doesn't mean it's right.

It's nature.
Nature doesn't care about what some people call "right".
Nature's inconsiderate like that.

Author:  Rusty [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:38 am ]
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...Yeah.

Author:  Vitruvian Dude [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:30 am ]
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1. Too many deer.
2. Peoples without food.
3. ????
4. Non-profit!

In other words, I propose a program, government or otherwise, that provides incentives for people to hunt deer and donate the meat to the homeless or whoever.

Also, deer jerky = most delicious.

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:33 am ]
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If you make it for "poverty income households", I'd so vote for it. Mostly because I'd likely qualify for it.

Author:  netzen [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:11 pm ]
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Look, I hunt for two things: Sport and Meat.
I hunt because it's fun, its a chance to get outdoors with my dad and his buddy and shoot guns. If I ever kill a buck I may get it mounted (if it's large enough), to show my accomplishment (beleive me, these deer are tricky and so my first buck would be something I'd like to remember. It's just like any other trophy, a symbol of what you've accomplished.
I hunt because it provides food. I enjoy venison, and I enjoy meat in general.

Lot's of people don't always realize that something DIES when they eat a steak. Now this is a small minority, but even more people have no understanding of the butchering process. When I got my deer this weekend we feild dressed it, then took it back to this one guys farm to hang it in his machine shop. We then skined and butchered it. So don't think that I don't understand that I KILL something everytime I hunt, I understand fully, because I take part in pretty much EVERY proccess.

Author:  StrongRad [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Vitruvian Dude wrote:
1. Too many deer.
2. Peoples without food.
3. ????
4. Non-profit!

In other words, I propose a program, government or otherwise, that provides incentives for people to hunt deer and donate the meat to the homeless or whoever.

Also, deer jerky = most delicious.


There are a lot of programs for this.
http://everythingforhunters.com/donating_game.html
Also http://www.huntershelpingthehungry.org/

Author:  DukeNuke [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:09 pm ]
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Everything will die eventually weather you kill and eat it or not. As long as the animal had a decent life, I see no problem with hunting. And, even though I think it's gross, I don't think cannibalizm is wrong either, as long as the person being eaten agreed to it.

And the solution to overpopulation would be a reduced birthrate, enforced by law, if neccecary. Not cannibalizm.

Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:18 pm ]
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I'm probably too late on this, but I think hunting is a great sport, and it contributes billions to Michigan's currently pitiful economy. I'm not quite sure who's morals it's "wrong" by, but to whatever people said a deer is 'defenseless' way back on the first page, it's not, otherwise hunting would be pretty easy and not much fun... :)

Author:  sci-fi greg [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:46 pm ]
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I understand killing stuff and eating it, but I don't like why didy thinks it's right. Because they're lesser? That's ridiculous. They're not bothering anyone.

Author:  Didymus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:11 pm ]
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Who said anything about "bothering" anyone? I use the term "lesser" to indicate that they are not rational creatures as humans are. My reasoning for distinguishing between a human being (a rational creature) and other creatures (who do not have equal ability to reason) is based on us having certain attributes and qualities that creatures like deer do not. For that reason, I contend that killing a less-than-rational creature like a deer is not on equal par with murdering a human being.

Furthermore, Greg, go back and read ALL my posts. I'm not advocating running around killing things just because they're not human. I am defending hunting in part because of the food issue. But, if you'll note my initial response to this thread, I also pointed out that deer overpopulation (which is a real danger in certain parts of the country) can actually cause harm to the environment and to human food supplies, and in some cases, even potential risk to human lives (do you know how many car accidents are caused by collisions with deer?). It's not that I believe deer ought be be killed "JUST" because they're lesser animals; food and population control are plenty good reasons.

But if killing a "poor defenseless deer" is wrong, then it is equally wrong - if not more so - to kill a cow or a chicken. Deer at least have senses and instincts to detect hunters, and are able to run from them. Cows and chickens are completely helpless.

To summarize:
1. The distinction between humans and lesser animals is why I consider it morally wrong to kill human beings, but not necessarily animals.

2. There are reasons - such as food and population control - to hunt deer.

3. If it's morally wrong to kill a deer, it is equally wrong to kill a cow or a chicken.

Author:  Ju Ju Master [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:32 pm ]
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Dids, I've noticed you've been making the point that animals other than humans are not rational - that's what sets us apart - but do you have any proof to back that up? Sure, other great minds have said that, but then again, did they have any proof? Your point seems a bit too generalized to go without question.

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