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'08 Elections!!!
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13311		 Page 7 of 13
Author:  The Noid [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
I'm not saying that I support them. Well, it looks like I did, but that was weird wording.

Basically, it's what Sree said: it's the only realistic option.

Super Tuesday's almost here. I predict that we'll be left with Hillary and Obama after it for the Democrats, and McCain with either Huckabee or Romney or maybe both.
Author:  StrongRad [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
AbuGrape45 wrote:
You're probably right there, but it doesn't change the fact that no one should support them due to the fact that they are, in fact, criminals.

I could not agree with you more. If there was a button I could push that would deport every illegal immigrant instantly, I'd press it about 10 times (even if it would mean my favorite restaurants would only have about 3 employees).

Nobody gave my friend Myleen amnesty (and her family tried to come here legally and thought they were), so nobody else deserves it.

My point still stands, though. It's impossible to kick out every illegal immigrant. Even if you could, they'd just keep coming in until you support the border.

The only viable option is to punish those who are here as they're caught. Do whatever... Fine them, jail them for some time, whatever. Then put them on the path to citizenship. Put them at the back of the line (behind people who are trying to obey the law) but put them in line.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
StrongRad wrote:
HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:
No, Ron Paul has enough money to keep on running for the next 124 years.

Money doesn't matter if you're not going to get votes.

He's the Republicans' version of Dennis Kucinich. He's going to keep chugging along, but nobody really cares.

Supposedly he has a decent shot at winning Louisiana. Still, Feb. 9 is a little late to win your first state, and voters could easily change their minds after Tuesday.
Author:  MooKoo [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Full Amnesty, Partial Amnesty? Amnesty Shmamnesty. You're forgiving them for coming over here and giving them the right to become actual citizens. They had that right in the first place, but no, they didn't feel like waiting in line. Kick 'em out, the prisons are already overpopulated so that'd be dumb to chunk 'em in there. Speaking of fining them, the money they have is all gotten illegally, they get the money illegally, then pay it back to the government to become citizens. Its unfair to everyone that comes in legally and to all citizens who currently live in the states. The only logical thing to do is to have them get the eff out! That or, put 'em in the Army and ship 'em off to Iraq.

furrykef wrote:
Uh, no. Not everybody in Gitmo was caught red-handed with other terrorists. You can't just imprison somebody merely because somebody says they were involved with terrorism. How would you like that to happen to you?

- Kef

Look, there does have to be a certain amount of evidence before you're guilty. Of course no one can just say, 'Hey, saw this guy talkin' to that guy who is a terrorist.' The whole world would be in utter chaos. Its up for the government to find out if he's a terrorist or associated with the terrorists. Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.

@ed 'lim' smilde:
If you're visiting here on vacation you have what is called a passport/visa.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
If you're visiting here on vacation you have what is called a passport/visa.
Yeah, but that still doesn't make you a citizen.

Aside from that, I didn't illegals never did anything wrong. I just said that you don't need to be a citizen to have rights in this country. Illegals are still protected from crimes against them.
Author:  The Noid [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Full Amnesty, Partial Amnesty? Amnesty Shmamnesty. You're forgiving them for coming over here and giving them the right to become actual citizens. They had that right in the first place, but no, they didn't feel like waiting in line. Kick 'em out, the prisons are already overpopulated so that'd be dumb to chunk 'em in there. Speaking of fining them, the money they have is all gotten illegally, they get the money illegally, then pay it back to the government to become citizens. Its unfair to everyone that comes in legally and to all citizens who currently live in the states. The only logical thing to do is to have them get the eff out! That or, put 'em in the Army and ship 'em off to Iraq.



Kicking them out would just have them come back in. If the borders didn't stop them first, then it probably won't second. Putting them at the back at the line is much smarter than just starting a cycle or drafting them all off to fight our war.
Author:  StrongRad [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
I can't say that I disagree with the war idea.
It's a path to citizenship.

It's not without precedent, either. The US did it to immigrants during the Civil War (that part of Gangs of New York is true).

I can't imagine a better way to prove that you are willing to be a productive member of society than to put your life on the line for citizenship.

Of course, I'm sure people would ask "what makes us so great to make other people go off and fight for us?".

I really don't have a response to that.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
StrongRad wrote:
"what makes us so great to make other people go off and fight for us?".

If we're good enough to have a flock of illegal immigrants flood in, then we're good enough to send them to war so they can gain citizenship.
Author:  furrykef [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Look, there does have to be a certain amount of evidence before you're guilty. Of course no one can just say, 'Hey, saw this guy talkin' to that guy who is a terrorist.' The whole world would be in utter chaos. Its up for the government to find out if he's a terrorist or associated with the terrorists. Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.


If you're going to look at it that way, you might as well argue that the idea of a fair trial is redundant -- not just for terrorists, but for anybody. All you need is a bunch of evidence to back you up.

- Kef
Author:  racerx_is_alive [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
GITMO:
It was a bad idea, and I am against making it bigger. Basically, we hurriedly gathered up anyone we suspected and threw them in a prison where US laws have no effect. It was supposed to be a brief holding cell while evidence was gathered up. Unfortunately, we don't have any evidence against many of them. There are others we do have evidence against. The problem is that we can't let any of them go now. The innocent ones have been locked up for years with no charges hanging out with actual terrorists. How do you think they're gonna feel about the US when we let them off? They may have come in against al-queda, but they have surely changed sides now. It's a catch-22. Can't keep them, they haven't done anything wrong. Can't let them go now, they'll be first in line to destroy the US.

That being said, the only way out now is to gather the evidence we have, try them in a court of law, and free the ones we can't actually charge. Sadly, even the ones we know are guilty as sin will be let off as their lawyers will be able to argue that the process was fundamentally flawed. It sucks, but that's what you get for doing it wrong.

I was going to write about illegal immigration as well, but I don't have enough time to gather my thoughts fully tonight. Maybe later.
Author:  AbuGrape45 [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Well, the primaries are in California today. So I asked around my school who kids wanted on each ballot. They didn't even mention anything about Republicans, they just said they wanted Obama to win it all. I asked why, and they said, "Well, he's black and he'll get the troops out of Iraq." *facepalm*

Here's where I was going with that statement: The problem with today's politics. People are uneducated about it, and see getting the troops out as the main issue. I personally think it's an unimportant issue. Even if it was huge, it's not like Obama could press an Easy Button and have U.S Troops back home. All people do is contradict themselves.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
AbuGrape45 wrote:
Here's where I was going with that statement: The problem with today's politics. People are uneducated about it, and see getting the troops out as the main issue. I personally think it's an unimportant issue. Even if it was huge, it's not like Obama could press an Easy Button and have U.S Troops back home. All people do is contradict themselves.

Yeah, perhaps its a good thing that high school / college-age students have the most pathetically low turnout of any group...
Author:  AbuGrape45 [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
And that half of them can't vote anyways.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
I admit I'm uneducated on the issues, but I did at least take an online quiz to confirm that Obama would be right for me. (It asked me about how I thought about various issues -- without telling me which candidate was endorsing them -- and Obama did win by a pretty good margin.) So I went out and voted for Obama.
Author:  The Snork [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Heh, Ohio primaries aren't until March. And I can't vote anyway. Heh.
Author:  HHFOV [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Ron Paul won Maine.

Surprising.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:
Ron Paul won Maine.

Surprising.
I'm quite certain Mitt Romney won Maine...

Also, lol, Newsweek.com has great political cartoons:
Image
Author:  HHFOV [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Yeah, maybe Romney did, but what matters is who got the most delegates, which was Paul by far.

EDIT: Nevermind, I got this from a fake source and is not true.
Author:  Rusty [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Lol, nice going, Homestate. Hillary won.

MooKoo wrote:
Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.


That's horrible.
Author:  MooKoo [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Rusty wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.


That's horrible.

What they did was horrible!

Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial! That's why Gitmo was even created in the first place.
furrykef wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
Look, there does have to be a certain amount of evidence before you're guilty. Of course no one can just say, 'Hey, saw this guy talkin' to that guy who is a terrorist.' The whole world would be in utter chaos. Its up for the government to find out if he's a terrorist or associated with the terrorists. Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.

If you're going to look at it that way, you might as well argue that the idea of a fair trial is redundant -- not just for terrorists, but for anybody. All you need is a bunch of evidence to back you up.

- Kef

Kef, dude, its terrorism. Or other words, mass destruction and death, that doesn't deserve a fair trial. Don't you get it? Its not like robbing a bank, trafficking drugs/guns/illegals, or kidnappings. Its mass murder! If there is enough evidence to associate you with that, then you don't deserve a fair trial.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Mookoo, the KKK just called and they want to know where to send your membership card.

Mookoo wrote:
If there is enough evidence to associate you with that, then you don't deserve a fair trial.
Timothy McVeigh got a fair trial and he killed 162 people. Same goes for the men that bombed the WTC in 1993. Even Zacarias Moussaoui, a man that was linked to Al Qaeda, got a fair trial. So terrorists do get fair trials, they deserve them. It is written in to the highest law in the land that you are entitled to a fair trial whether you are a citizen or not. If you commit a crime here or are involved in the preparation of the crime, you are liable to be prosecuted here.

SUPER TUESDAY RESULTS:
DEMOCRATS:
Clinton wins: AR, TN, NY, NJ, CA, OK, MA, AZ
Obama wins: NM, MN, GA, AL, Conn, UT, Mizzou, Ill, DE, ND, Kansas, ID, CO, AK

Clinton has 582 delegates
Obama has 485

It looks like the pendulum is back on Hillary's side.

GOP:
McCain wins: CA, NY, Ill, OK, AZ, Conn, Mizzou, DE
Romney wins: MN, MA, UT, AK, ND, CO, MT
Huckabee wins: WV, AR, TN, GA, AL,

McCain has 516 delegates
Romney has 207
Huckabee has 142

Barring a miracle, McCain's going to get the nod.
Author:  furrykef [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial!


No.
Author:  Sneakernets [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Obama is already claiming a delegate lead as of today.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8358.html
Author:  The Snork [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial!
That is just incredibly bigoted...
Author:  Ju Ju Master [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Quote:
If there is enough evidence to associate you with that, then you don't deserve a fair trial.

That doesn't make any sense. if there's enough evidence against them, why are you so against them getting a fair trial? Obviously they're going to be convicted, because of the great amount of evidence you say there is against them.
Author:  Mikes! [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Rusty wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.


That's horrible.

What they did was horrible!

Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial! That's why Gitmo was even created in the first place.
furrykef wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
Look, there does have to be a certain amount of evidence before you're guilty. Of course no one can just say, 'Hey, saw this guy talkin' to that guy who is a terrorist.' The whole world would be in utter chaos. Its up for the government to find out if he's a terrorist or associated with the terrorists. Once, they have some solid evidence, hang 'em. There is no need for a trial.

If you're going to look at it that way, you might as well argue that the idea of a fair trial is redundant -- not just for terrorists, but for anybody. All you need is a bunch of evidence to back you up.

- Kef

Kef, dude, its terrorism. Or other words, mass destruction and death, that doesn't deserve a fair trial. Don't you get it? Its not like robbing a bank, trafficking drugs/guns/illegals, or kidnappings. Its mass murder! If there is enough evidence to associate you with that, then you don't deserve a fair trial.
Not to totally default to cliche, but are you at least aware of the amount of civilian deaths which have occurred on the other side of the "War on Terror?" And do you at least grasp the meanings of the 9/11 attacks? The destruction of the World Trade Center, and the plane crash into the Pentagon was certainly not a random slaughter of innocent bystanders. It was a calculated attack on two monolithic symbols of American power. In the process, many people who didn't deserve those deaths were killed, but Osama bin Ladin wasn't firing a machine gun into a crowded market. I'm not making any attempt to justify the killing of civilians, but you're being quite unfair in your indictment here.


Also, this:
Ju Ju Master wrote:
Quote:
If there is enough evidence to associate you with that, then you don't deserve a fair trial.

That doesn't make any sense. if there's enough evidence against them, why are you so against them getting a fair trial? Obviously they're going to be convicted, because of the great amount of evidence you say there is against them.
Author:  Sneakernets [ Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
MooKoo wrote:
Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial!


Funny, the Pharasees told the Sanhedrin the same thing around 2000 years ago.
Author:  StrongRad [ Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
furrykef wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
Don't you people understand that these people don't deserve a fair trial!


No.

Yeah, I think a guy randomly caught with radio equipment that he's selling (just as randomly) to make a little money to buy some food should receive a fair trial. Likewise for the random guy that was seen talking to a terrorist, or the guy that was giving half of his money to a group for protection because he knew they'd kill him if he didn't.

I'm fairly certain that there are some people in GITMO that need to meet the business end of a .45 or a nice rope with a noose on the end of it. I'm also equally certain that there are people who are just victims of circumstance, eg. they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The problem is, it's really hard to tell who is friendly and who is not, especially since assuming the wrong person is friendly could cost someone their life.

A trial gives a non-emotional way to look at the facts and separate the jerks from the good people.

Now, if someone is found guilty of perpetrating or planning terrorist attacks against innocent people of the world, I have no problem giving them the old "Hang 'em High". I just think we should be sure first.

With that said, McCain didn't do too bad last night. He's halfway there for his required number of delegates.

Listening to his speech last night, Obama really sounded like The Rock. He has a VERY similar voice.

I think he should end one speech with "IF YOU SMEEEEEELLLLL WHAT BARACK... IS COOKIN'!".
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
Romney is out.

!?
Author:  Mikes! [ Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '08 Elections!!!
"'In this time of war, I simply cannot let my campaign be a part of aiding a surrender to terror. This is not an easy decision. I hate to lose,' the former Massachusetts governor said."

What a demagogue. I can't believe he actually said that.
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