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Who is you choice for President?
Poll ended at Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:02 am
Barack Obama 73%  73%  [ 8 ]
John McCain 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
Third Party Candidate 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11
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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:02 am 
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HHFOV wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:

Convince me to vote for Barr. I'm interested in him, but don't know much about his policies yet.
He maintained a steadfast and conservative, Goldwater-esque voting record during his term in Congress, and he's a realist at understanding how to break the system by using the system. He was behind the impeachment of President Clinton, and being a lawyer can use that side of things to his advantage. Now, being a libertarian, he also understands the need for the preservation of American founding principles, things like balancing liberty with security, and rejects nanny-states. Barr is a strong advocate of local and states' rights, hesitant to impose drastic changes on any given area without the locals' express consent, thus retaining each locality's respective sovereignty. He's a Reagan and a Goldwater conservative who, while maximizing personal liberty and respecting constitutional limits, understands and is willing to act on cases where action needs to be taken. Also, he's for lower taxes and national security. I think there are a lot of Americans out there whose political philosophies align with his, but simply lack the knowledge or the dedication involved in pulling off going to the ballots and voting for him.
His environmental policies (mainly that the government doesn't control what companies do) make the Bush administration look like the Sierra Club.
I DO like the fact that he's not all paranoid about global warming, but that's not my concern when I say "the environment". I'm talking about real problems, like emissions of toxins and stuff like that.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:00 am 
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There is certainly a balance that needs to be found between over-controlling companies and letting them freely dump nuclear waste into our cities' swimming pools.

I am confident in corporate America, but not enough so that I trust them to do everything they can to be smart about the environment.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:07 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
There is certainly a balance that needs to be found between over-controlling companies and letting them freely dump nuclear waste into our cities' swimming pools.

I am confident in corporate America, but not enough so that I trust them to do everything they can to be smart about the environment.

I feel that, in general, the only place for "heavy-handedness" in government is with the environment. I'm not talking about CO2 regulation... For that, I think the "let them dump nuclear waste into our swimming pools" mentality, although not with nuclear waste, is the right idea.

When it comes to things like HAPs (Hazardous Air Pollutants), criteria pollutants like Lead, SO2, Ozone (which isn't actually emitted, but comes from stuff that is emitted), and protection of stratospheric ozone (Ozone: Good up high, bad nearby), I'm all about some good regulation.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I support draconian regulation, but as a person with a vested interest in air quality (because of my job and the fact that I breathe air) I think it's very important to keep the air clean.
Also, if you want to see what lax water quality regulations can do, look at Mexico (or Lake Erie in the 70's).

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:11 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
I am confident in corporate America


I'm not. Corporations have no incentive to do anything beyond comply with the law, and when a corporation has no incentive to do something, it won't do it. (In fact, they often have trouble complying with the law as it is.)

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:00 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
I am confident in corporate America


I'm not. Corporations have no incentive to do anything beyond comply with the law, and when a corporation has no incentive to do something, it won't do it. (In fact, they often have trouble complying with the law as it is.)

- Kef

I butt heads with environmental groups on this all the time (I develop air quality regulations).
They are always harping on how regulations don't "have incentives to do anything but the legal minimum".
That's the point of the law, to be followed. You know what the difference is between someone who is just barely following the law and someone who isn't anywhere close to violating it? Nothing, in the eyes of my Division.
I always want to challenge people who are always saying things like "they don't do anything but barely comply with the law" by asking them why they don't drive 10-20 mph below the speed limit.

I'm not attacking you, Kef, just getting this off my chest.
It's a phrase I hear all of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:02 pm 
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So anyway, moving slightly back on topic...

Sometimes our two-party system stinks. I know I'm not alone when I say neither McCain or Obama represent me well enough for me to vote for them. What would it take for a 3rd-party candidate to actually win the presidential election? I personally think it's impossible, but maybe someone has a theory as to how it could be done.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:48 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
I always want to challenge people who are always saying things like "they don't do anything but barely comply with the law" by asking them why they don't drive 10-20 mph below the speed limit.


I don't think that's a good analogy. There's not much reason to go 10-20 MPH under the speed limit. You won't really be safer, you'll slow down traffic (making everybody mad and probably provoking road rage), you'll get to your destination more slowly. You might save a bit of gas and pollute a tiny bit less, but I think it's quite reasonable to believe that the benefits don't outweigh the downsides.

But what bothers me about corporations is that they don't have the capacity to think for themselves the way that individuals do. They don't choose to barely obey the law; they are forced to barely obey the law -- because that's the way corporations operate. Corporations will always gravitate towards whatever behavior they believe will generate the most money, no matter the ethics. It's the way the system is designed. Consider, for example, the hypothetical idea that it'd be legal for a corporation to place a hit on somebody. What would be the result of that? A lot of dead people, probably many more than if individuals instead of corporations were making that kind of decision.

lahimatoa wrote:
Sometimes our two-party system stinks.


Sometimes?

Quote:
I know I'm not alone when I say neither McCain or Obama represent me well enough for me to vote for them. What would it take for a 3rd-party candidate to actually win the presidential election? I personally think it's impossible, but maybe someone has a theory as to how it could be done.


It had a pretty good chance of happening when Theodore Roosevelt was running for his third term. It would probably take something like that... somebody who was already President, and a very popular one, running again as a third party.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:41 am 
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It had a pretty good chance of happening when Theodore Roosevelt was running for his third term. It would probably take something like that... somebody who was already President, and a very popular one, running again as a third party.


This is true.

However, outside of an ex-president running again, I don't see it ever happening. But I'm not sure what alternative would be better.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:00 am 
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I think another possibility is a candidate like Joe Lieberman. Someone who has influence with one of the parties because of previous affiliation but has changed to a different party for other reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:05 am 
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Regarding discussion on the last page, I really don't understand why money would be worthless just because it's fiat. Money is just a concept we use as a placeholder for whatever it is we need to buy with that money. (eg. it would be too difficult for your employer to actually give you food and clothes, so he gives you money so you can get them) As long as everyone recognizes the same stuff as a placeholder, isn't that all you need?

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:22 am 
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Dark Grapefruit wrote:
Regarding discussion on the last page, I really don't understand why money would be worthless just because it's fiat. Money is just a concept we use as a placeholder for whatever it is we need to buy with that money. (eg. it would be too difficult for your employer to actually give you food and clothes, so he gives you money so you can get them) As long as everyone recognizes the same stuff as a placeholder, isn't that all you need?


For the record, the United States isn't running a fiat currency (check out
An economy may function on credit money which is not fiat money, such as United States paper currency during periods when the U.S. did not have a central bank.

We do back our money up, but it's a little screwy how we do it. We back our money up with debt. Banks sell and trade debts around all the time (not just in the US). One bank will buy a loan worth some amount of money, then they will take that owed money and create a new loan using it as collateral.

The question is, what happens when someone comes to collect? (who is that someone anyway?)

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:51 am 
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Wasn't one of the reasons we had a revolution was because we didn't want a central bank handling our money?

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:13 am 
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No, but that was a major cause of debate in the new US Government. Alexander Hamilton ended up being a big reason for creating a national system. His system was eventually destroyed by Andrew Jackson. There are more ups and downs in the history of a national bank but I can't remember them at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:00 am 
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Quote:
I know I'm not alone when I say neither McCain or Obama represent me well enough for me to vote for them. What would it take for a 3rd-party candidate to actually win the presidential election? I personally think it's impossible, but maybe someone has a theory as to how it could be done.


More people just need to reject the two party system. That's it.


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:39 am 
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Acekirby wrote:
No, but that was a major cause of debate in the new US Government. Alexander Hamilton ended up being a big reason for creating a national system. His system was eventually destroyed by Andrew Jackson. There are more ups and downs in the history of a national bank but I can't remember them at the moment.


Yeah. Jackson thought that the banks made the rich people (Whigs? Or is that after the Era of Good Feelings?) too powerful and since he was "the common man's president" he didn't stand for anything like that at all. So he stopped putting federal money in it.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Um, Senator Obama? What are you doing?

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Discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Meh. So he merged his logo with the seal for the second campaign. Like an evolution, sort of, if you think of the presidential seal as the end. Won't really matter.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:54 pm 
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The Noid wrote:
Meh. So he merged his logo with the seal for the second campaign. Like an evolution, sort of, if you think of the presidential seal as the end. Won't really matter.


Well, I don't know that it matters, exactly, but it's fairly arrogant. I realize he's most likely going to win, but that doesn't mean he should act like it's a sure thing. :)

Not to mention the fact that he changed "E Pluribus Unum" to what is essentially Latin for "YES WE CAN!"

I prefer "Out of Many, One," myself. For someone who claims to be The Great Uniter, Senator Obama doesn't seem very hot on uniting.

I'm also not a fan of how he accused Republicans of future racism in the campaign. What is this, Minority Report?

Senator Obama wrote:
Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama said on Friday he expects Republicans to highlight the fact that he is black as part of an effort to make voters afraid of him.

"It is going to be very difficult for Republicans to run on their stewardship of the economy or their outstanding foreign policy," Obama told a fundraiser in Jacksonville, Florida. "We know what kind of campaign they're going to run. They're going to try to make you afraid.

"They're going to try to make you afraid of me. He's young and inexperienced and he's got a funny name. And did I mention he's black?"


Let's focus on real examples of racism when they actually occur, instead of talking about ones that may happen.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:52 pm 
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Come on, lahi, that was obviously meant as an addendum. I mean, don't tell me you haven't seen any racism at all from any Republican towards Obama. And his other stuff you can't even argue with. I know I've seen endless variations on "B. Hussein Obama" from Republicans in the media. You yourself have probably cited his inexperience.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:04 pm 
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Come on, lahi, that was obviously meant as an addendum.


Not sure what you mean here. Does the fact that it was an addendum mean he didn't mean it?

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I mean, don't tell me you haven't seen any racism at all from any Republican towards Obama.


No, I haven't. I'm sure it exists, but as far as me seeing anyone say, "Obama can't be president because he's black," no, I haven't seen that at all.

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And his other stuff you can't even argue with. I know I've seen endless variations on "B. Hussein Obama" from Republicans in the media. You yourself have probably cited his inexperience.


I certainly have cited his inexperience. I think it's a valid concern for any voter, and it's not remotely unfair or racist to mention it.

I do agree that saying, "lol hiz name iz Hussein" is dumb and pointless.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:11 pm 
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My mom thinks it'd be weird to say "President Obama". Why the heck not? We're certainly a diverse country, but it's not like he's going to lead a coup and try to run like Ayatollah Khomeini. :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:40 pm 
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I know several familys who think Obama is the antichrist.

did people say that abour Kerry or Gore in the past two elections?

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:32 pm 
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No, because they're white and their middle names aren't Hussein.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
I know several familys who think Obama is the antichrist.


Um, do they literally think he's the antichrist? As in his express purpose is to lead people away from Jesus and down to hell?

Somehow I doubt that.

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did people say that abour Kerry or Gore in the past two elections?


Not that I remember.

So?

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No, because they're white and their middle names aren't Hussein.


Please stop race-baiting and attributing beliefs and motivations to people you've never met.

There's enough real racism in the world without people looking for it where it doesn't exist.

On that note, can we please turn this thread back to a discussion of issues? Senator Obama himself has said he'd like the election to be devoid of race talk.

Here's my take on the energy situation:

1. Drill off the United States' shores. Use the oil for our own purposes in the short term while we

2. Build a ton of nuclear power plants to generate electricty for

3. The electric car, baby. It's coming.

Ding! Problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:13 pm 
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There's enough real racism in the world without people looking for it where it doesn't exist.


There are people that won't vote for Obama because he's black. I know them, I live in a redneck hole where if you bring up Obama, somebody pipes up "GONNA GET SHOT, KKK ARE GENUS". And there are people that won't vote for him because his middle name is another name for Henry.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:28 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
I know several familys who think Obama is the antichrist.


Um, do they literally think he's the antichrist? As in his express purpose is to lead people away from Jesus and down to hell?

Somehow I doubt that.

So then you doubt that two of my friends' parents (And my friends themselves) believe that he is the Antichrist and that he will lead them astray and down to hell?

Well, you're wrong because thats exactly what they believe. Word for word, actually.

I really ought to go back there for dinner again...

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:36 pm 
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The Noid wrote:
And there are people that won't vote for him because his middle name is another name for Henry.
Wait, what?

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:52 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
I know several familys who think Obama is the antichrist.


Um, do they literally think he's the antichrist? As in his express purpose is to lead people away from Jesus and down to hell?

Somehow I doubt that.
Sadly, I think he's being totally serious.
There's a lady I work with that is convinced he's:
a) a communist
b) a socialist (not sure what the difference is between a&b)
c) the Anti-Christ
d) a Muslim

Also, I have several family members that believe he's the Anti-Christ. Apparently, they've read this email and it has been proven that he is, because Nostradamus said so or something like that. They don't like McCain either because he somehow sided with the North Vietnamese while he served. They read it "on the internet on a site run by the swift boat guys that exposed Kerry", so they "know" it's true and cannot be questioned.
Before you ask, I am embarrassed to be related to them.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:18 am 
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^^ I love how this lady lumps "Muslim" together with "Anti-Christ". Because all dem Muslims are terrists rite?
And Nostradamus? Seriously? There have been at least ten people he apparently predicted to be the anti-Christ in the last ten years alone, if chain emails are to be believed. There is not a big enough facepalm for these people.

Stu wrote:
For the record, the United States isn't running a fiat currency (check out
An economy may function on credit money which is not fiat money, such as United States paper currency during periods when the U.S. did not have a central bank.

We do back our money up, but it's a little screwy how we do it. We back our money up with debt. Banks sell and trade debts around all the time (not just in the US). One bank will buy a loan worth some amount of money, then they will take that owed money and create a new loan using it as collateral.

The question is, what happens when someone comes to collect? (who is that someone anyway?)


Oh, well no wonder I'm lost on this money discussion, I was completely wrong as to how I thought US money works. >.>
I'm going to try and get my head around this credit concept before I say anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 am 
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Also, I have several family members that believe he's the Anti-Christ. Apparently, they've read this email and it has been proven that he is, because Nostradamus said so or something like that.


As usual, I stand corrected on how stupid people can be.

Crikeys.

But my original point is: will the McCain campaign really come out and say "Obama shouldn't be president because he's black"?

Because that's what I interpreted Obama's remarks to mean he's anticipating.

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