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Who is you choice for President?
Poll ended at Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:02 am
Barack Obama 73%  73%  [ 8 ]
John McCain 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
Third Party Candidate 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11
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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:47 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
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Also, I have several family members that believe he's the Anti-Christ. Apparently, they've read this email and it has been proven that he is, because Nostradamus said so or something like that.


As usual, I stand corrected on how stupid people can be.

Crikeys.

But my original point is: will the McCain campaign really come out and say "Obama shouldn't be president because he's black"?

Because that's what I interpreted Obama's remarks to mean he's anticipating.

McCain won't.
I don't hold out much hope for some of his supporters, though.

Then again, I'm half expecting McCain to be accused of that, whether he does it or not. All Obama's people have to do is make it look like that's what happened.

I really don't want this to be a case of anything other than "who will be better at running our country". Of course, the best we can hope for is a campaign that tells us who will be least efficient at ruining our country.

McCain and Obama have both indicated a willingness to run a clean campaign, and I feel that they are completely sincere in this. Unfortunately, I doubt their supporters will.

If I knew there'd be any chance of it happening, I'd invite both of them over for pizza and Wii on a random night during the campaign. Of course, that'd never actually work.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:54 am 
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Can you imagine John McCain trying to figure out a Wii?

I would pay upwards of five dollars to see that.

Anyway, I think what Obama was getting at with those comments is that he expects to experience swift-boat style misinformation campaigns from unofficial surrogate groups of the Republican party. I would hate to see that kind of thing from McCain's camp, especially after he got the same treatment in 2000 when Bush's cronies spread the "McCain fathered a black baby" rumor.

And you know what? I'm an Obama supporter, and I'm going to vote for him with great enthusiasm in November. But I also think he just might be the Antichrist. Guy comes from absolutely nowhere to the presidency (let's face it, he's going to win), semi-mysterious background, super charismatic, cult-like following from his most extreme supporters (YES WE CAN). I don't really think he is, and in fact I kinda doubt the whole Antichrist thing (wasn't Nero the Antichrist or something?), but he really does fit most of the criteria.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:19 am 
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Snopes knows about the antichrist thing.

It really makes me mad, the kind of crap people say in e-mails like this. Here's another one I read the other day where people are speculating on what Obama "really" meant when he accidentally said he's visited 57 states (apparently, the Organization of the Islamic Conference happens to have 57 member states) when he obviously meant to say 47. Come on... Bush says stuff like that every day and gets a free pass beyond people making (mostly) innocent fun of the way he talks.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:22 am 
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Jitka wrote:
Can you imagine John McCain trying to figure out a Wii?

I would pay upwards of five dollars to see that.

Anyway, I think what Obama was getting at with those comments is that he expects to experience swift-boat style misinformation campaigns from unofficial surrogate groups of the Republican party. I would hate to see that kind of thing from McCain's camp, especially after he got the same treatment in 2000 when Bush's cronies spread the "McCain fathered a black baby" rumor.

And you know what? I'm an Obama supporter, and I'm going to vote for him with great enthusiasm in November. But I also think he just might be the Antichrist. Guy comes from absolutely nowhere to the presidency (let's face it, he's going to win), semi-mysterious background, super charismatic, cult-like following from his most extreme supporters (YES WE CAN). I don't really think he is, and in fact I kinda doubt the whole Antichrist thing (wasn't Nero the Antichrist or something?), but he really does fit most of the criteria.

I'll save all of the Anti-Christ speculation right now.
It's Martha Stewart.
You know why "they" all say it's a man? It's because "they" were all in a patriarchal system where women weren't allowed to do anything so that automatically assumed anyone with that much power had to be a man. Think about it.

Seriously, though, if what I've heard is true, the guy behind "Swiftboat" are going to come at McCain, guns blaring.[1]
Also [2].

My stepdad (Vietnam vet) gets REALLY mad when he sees this stuff. He didn't like "Swiftboat Vets", either.
In his opinion, no service member (or civilian) should ever go after another serviceman unless they've done some horrible crime.
He even has me doubting whether or not these men are actually veterans.

When they can prove to me that McCain wasn't drugged up or otherwise coerced in the "appearances" they claim happened, then I might believe that he willingly accepted preferential treatment. He DIDN'T take a "free pass" that the Vietnamese offered him when they found out his dad was an admiral (such a deal would have given them a political bargaining chip).

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:28 am 
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furrykef wrote:
Come on... Bush says stuff like that every day and gets a free pass beyond people making (mostly) innocent fun of the way he talks.

- Kef


Kaza...WHA?

Bush has been branded a complete and utter moron because of his "Bushisms."

Free pass my... uh... patootie.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:31 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
furrykef wrote:
Come on... Bush says stuff like that every day and gets a free pass beyond people making (mostly) innocent fun of the way he talks.

- Kef


Kaza...WHA?

Bush has been branded a complete and utter moron because of his "Bushisms."

Free pass my... uh... patootie.



When Bush makes one of his pronouncements, people don't care anymore because they've come to expect that sort of thing from him. He has a reputation for being a bumbling public speaker. Not so for Obama. People pounce all over him for gaffes like this because he is viewed as a good speaker, so when he says something like 57 states, people will say, "Aha! Not such a brilliant speaker after all, are you?"

It's just petty ridiculousness, and I think the only people who will buy into it are the ones who already hate Obama and wouldn't vote for him anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:32 am 
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lahimatoa wrote:
furrykef wrote:
Come on... Bush says stuff like that every day and gets a free pass beyond people making (mostly) innocent fun of the way he talks.

- Kef


Kaza...WHA?

Bush has been branded a complete and utter moron because of his "Bushisms."

Free pass my... uh... patootie.

That's still a free pass compared to charges of wanting to set up a caliphate, I think.

Frank Caliendo needs to work on an Obama impression.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:08 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
That's still a free pass compared to charges of wanting to set up a caliphate, I think.



Look, there are nuts out there who think crazy stuff about Obama.

Same for Bush. There are those who think he is responsible for 9/11, for example.

Let's not pretend Obama is getting picked on any more than any other high-profile political candidate we've seen.

And let's please not accuse people of being racists for choosing to criticize his policies.

For example:

Quote:
Barack Obama is to the left of Hillary Clinton and NARAL on the issue of life. As a state senator in Illinois, Barack Obama voted against the Induced Infant Liability Act, a law that would have protected babies if they survived an attempted abortion and were delivered alive. When a similar bill was proposed in the United States Senate, it passed unanimously and even the National Abortion Rights Action League issued a statement saying they did not oppose the law.


Wow. I know some posters here are pro-choice, but even they must blanch at the thought of killing a baby who has survived an attempted abortion.

Quote:
Frank Caliendo needs to work on an Obama impression.


I think he may be afraid of being called a racist if he did so. Charles Barkley is one thing, that guy can handle being the butt of a joke. But Obama and the people surrounding him seem to see the KKK in every corner.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:05 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
On that note, can we please turn this thread back to a discussion of issues? Senator Obama himself has said he'd like the election to be devoid of race talk.


cough cough

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:24 pm 
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As a state senator in Illinois, Barack Obama voted against the Induced Infant Liability Act, a law that would have protected babies if they survived an attempted abortion and were delivered alive.


I am always extremely suspicious of claims that "candidate X voted against proposed law Y". When proposed law Y is something that is obviously good, the reason for voting against it often has nothing to do with the Y part of the law but with a rider that was attached or some clause that was unreasonable. Obama did not vote against the principle of the law; he voted against the law itself. It is not enough to know that Obama voted against the law; we need to know why he voted against it. Of course, opponents (and their supporters) using things like these in their campaigns always leave that part out because it would usually defuse their argument.

"Candidate X voted against law Y" without any further elaboration is usually biased spin-doctoring that borders on outright lying, because although it doesn't say anything that is technically untrue, it invites listeners to draw blatantly false conclusions.

Quote:
When a similar bill was proposed in the United States Senate, it passed unanimously and even the National Abortion Rights Action League issued a statement saying they did not oppose the law.


Perhaps that "similar bill" didn't have whatever it was Obama had objected to?

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:40 pm 
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The point of an induced labor abortion is basically euthanasia. If a baby will live a terrible, painful, short life, then an induced labor abortion is called for. These are only legal when there is a general medical consensus that this is the best route. Because induced labor abortions often occur in the third trimester, the baby is viable for life outside the womb. The spirit of the induced labor abortion is to prevent a great deal of pain for the baby and a great deal of emotional pain for the mother. Therefore, it would be in the best interests of the spirit for the abortion to continue even when the baby exits the womb. Should it be legal? That depends on what you think of induced labor abortion in the first place. If you believe it should be legal, than this law naturally does not follow.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:42 pm 
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"Candidate X voted against law Y" without any further elaboration is usually biased spin-doctoring that borders on outright lying, because although it doesn't say anything that is technically untrue, it invites listeners to draw blatantly false conclusions.


There needs to be a website or something where people in Congress can explain why they voted a certain way for a certain bill. Because you're right, "Candidate X voted against (or for) law Y" is too vague.

Mandatory Congressional blogs! Genius!

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The point of an induced labor abortion is basically euthanasia.


I don't want to turn this into a debate on abortion, but the idea of "We tried to kill you and failed, so now we're putting you out of your misery" is horrible to me.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:28 pm 
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And the alternative isn't horrible?

Also, if I'm reading Lunar Jesty's post right, it's not really "We tried to kill you and failed"; the fetus emerging alive is the expected outcome. The problem, and the reason that such an abortion would be necessary, is that the child is not viable whether it is born or not. To me, it sounds like a rather horrible thing no matter what you do. Still, a short horrible life sounds a lot better to me than a slightly longer horrible life.

In any case, I think saying that the law would "protect" infants in such a case is a gross mischaracterization, because, if you ask me, it doesn't really protect them from much because they're going to die anyway. So it looks like there was indeed some mischaracterization in that statement; it was just in a different part of that statement than I expected.

Now I'm not saying that everybody should agree with my opinion. What I'm saying is that "Obama voted against this act that would protect infants" is likely to provoke a different reaction in somebody than actually knowing all the facts would, even if they do feel that such abortions should not be legal. Feeling that induced labor abortions should not be legal requires some thought; feeling that "Obama wants to kill live infants and that is bad!" does not. The guy who wrote that "Obama voted against this law" statement doesn't want you to think. Don't buy into that.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:13 pm 
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I've been looking for the exact text of the proposed legislation, but so far no luck. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.

I think everyone involved in this conversation here has been spouting off about things we have unclear information on, myself included.

The main point of argument seems to be whether

A.) These babies can survive outside the womb or

B.) they will die anyway, so this is just euthanasia.

Until we get the actual text, I don't think we'll settle that question.

But here's one thing to recognize: There's at least one example of a child who survived an attempted abortion and is living a normal life. So it does happen.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:19 am 
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This is apparently the full text. I have to admit I'm confused as to why the section numbering skips (1, 5, 10, 15, 90), and the end mentions an amendment that doesn't seem to actually appear anywhere, so maybe it isn't actually the full text even though it said "full text" when I clicked on it. I dunno. In any case, this is probably the best we're going to find.

In any case, it looks like the law doesn't say anything other than what we basically thought it said. (Of course, you can read it yourself to be sure. It's a very short read.)

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:49 pm 
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Hmm, you're right... the proposed law is vague, but I would still vote for it if I had the chance. I have a very hard time creating a line between "human" and "not human" in the progression of an unborn child. But one thing everyone seems to agree on is that once the child has been born, it's no longer subject to being aborted.

I've been thinking about the euthanasia argument made by LJ, and I have to disagree. There are children born with terminal diseases every day. As far as I know, we don't just kill them once it's clear they probably won't live a "normal" life.

Just because this child is unwanted, we should kill him right off? I say no.

In other news, the Supreme Court ruled against Washington D.C.'s gun ban today. It was a 5-4 decision.

In my opinion, this is good news. The gun ban did nothing to lower D.C.'s murder rate, as they were ranked seventh in the nation for murder in 2006. All the law did was take guns out of the hands of those who obey the law. I'm waiting for Obama's reaction to this. McCain's was positive.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:00 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
In other news, the Supreme Court ruled against Washington D.C.'s gun ban today. It was a 5-4 decision.

In my opinion, this is good news. The gun ban did nothing to lower D.C.'s murder rate, as they were ranked seventh in the nation for murder in 2006. All the law did was take guns out of the hands of those who obey the law. I'm waiting for Obama's reaction to this. McCain's was positive.


Obama is all over the place on the issue of gun control, which is one of the things I like least about him. He does support the rights for individual cities and states to decide if they want to ban guns, so I'm guessing the response will be wishy-washily negative.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:28 pm 
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I don't think gun ownership does anything to increase proactive self-defense, much less lower crime rates, despite the propaganda to the contrary. Still, despite some unconvincing propaganda coming from the other side, I think it's somewhat bigger than banning guns. It's larger societal problem. There shouldn't be a need to go to crime because the legitimate avenues are blocked. DC is a city steeped in local corruption (apples don't fall far from the tree) and poverty. Politicizing and overemphasizing gun violence distracts from the true issue that rotting urban communities need better community organizing.

Gun control is a smart idea at its core though, the three West Oakland hoods who ran up on my girlfriend and I two weeks ago all had guns which were most likely obtained legally at some point. Cutting off the supply would have meant that they probably wouldn't ever have guns come to them at all. The argument that a large black market would spring up in the absence of legal guns is a sensationalist spin. And it's certainly fallacy to argue that criminals don't already care about all laws if they intend to break specific ones.

It's my feeling that most people who advocate gun deregulation live in already safe, sterile, rural/suburban areas or have something to profit from the weapons industry.


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:36 pm 
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Obama is all over the place on the issue of gun control.


And NAFTA, and public campaign financing, and FISA.

And somehow Romney was labeled a flip-flopper, while Obama gets a free pass from the major networks, at least.

That might change, I guess. And I hope.

Quote:
And it's certainly fallacy to argue that criminals don't already care about all laws if they intend to break specific ones.


No, it's not.

What criminal intends to rob a convenience store or assault/kill someone but blanches at using a gun in the committal of these crimes because it's against the law to do so? That's a ridiculous thought.

Quote:
The argument that a large black market would spring up in the absence of legal guns is a sensationalist spin.


Uh, there already exists a black market for guns. I guarantee it would get larger if there were some sweeping ban on guns nationwide. See: Prohibition.

Look, I don't own a gun, and don't really plan on ever doing so. It's the principle that matters, in my book.

And no, I don't profit in any way from the gun industry.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:52 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
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And it's certainly fallacy to argue that criminals don't already care about all laws if they intend to break specific ones.


No, it's not.

What criminal intends to rob a convenience store or assault/kill someone but blanches at using a gun in the committal of these crimes because it's against the law to do so? That's a ridiculous thought.

Quote:
The argument that a large black market would spring up in the absence of legal guns is a sensationalist spin.


Uh, there already exists a black market for guns. I guarantee it would get larger if there were some sweeping ban on guns nationwide. See: Prohibition.

Look, I don't own a gun, and don't really plan on ever doing so. It's the principle that matters, in my book.

And no, I don't profit in any way from the gun industry.
Okay, so I guess I didn't totally tie up my argument here. Someone who robs a convenience store/commits a violent crime isn't going to have access to the black market unless they already have serious connections to it. The black market would marked up
too high for street thugs. And also, the prohibition of alcohol doesn't compare to the prohibition of guns. Not only are they two very different commodities, the demand for booze was so much higher and widespread than guns will ever be.

Either way, it's wholly secondary to my original point. Gun control is a red herring in general. The problem is that there is not enough effort to assist American poverty, which is why crime is so high in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:09 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
In other news, the Supreme Court ruled against Washington D.C.'s gun ban today. It was a 5-4 decision.

In my opinion, this is good news. The gun ban did nothing to lower D.C.'s murder rate, as they were ranked seventh in the nation for murder in 2006. All the law did was take guns out of the hands of those who obey the law.

'bout time.

I guess they should have put up more signs telling the thugs and drug dealers that it's illegal to kill someone with a handgun in DC.

This presidential election is interesting. The NRA has endorsed McCain (I think), but they aren't giving him an A+ rating.

I, too, want to see Obama's take. I seem to recall him saying something like he was against guns but also against the DC ban or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:08 am 
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The black market would marked up too high for street thugs. And also, the prohibition of alcohol doesn't compare to the prohibition of guns. Not only are they two very different commodities, the demand for booze was so much higher and widespread than guns will ever be.


Let's look at the UK. It's been illegal to carry a weapon there since 1953, so it's a fairly good test case, yes? According to this BBC piece, "a recent UN study (showed), England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for 'very serious' offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed."

In America, violent crime rates have been diving since 1995, while Britain's have been skyrocketing. Somehow these criminals are able to get guns despite laws against doing so. The cost can't be prohibitively expensive.

Of course, the other aspect is that even if these criminals aren't using guns in their muggings or home invasions or whatever, they don't need to, since there's no fear that the citizens they're assaulting will be carrying.

Quote:
Either way, it's wholly secondary to my original point. Gun control is a red herring in general. The problem is that there is not enough effort to assist American poverty, which is why crime is so high in the first place.


We need to define "poverty." Poverty in America is not poverty in Africa or South America. In America, poor people can get Welfare and Medicare and homeless shelters and soup kitchens galore. Not to mention there's always an entry-level job at McDonald's or Walmart... a way for ANYONE to get a start at a good life. I worked as a janitor and newspaper boy for years, getting good work experience and a work ethic.

Now I realize there are those who are mentally ill or addicted to drugs who can't do these things, but in my opinion, most everyone can. That's what's so great about America.

[/soapbox]

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:53 pm 
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*popping in for a second*
lahi wrote:
We need to define "poverty." Poverty in America is not poverty in Africa or South America. In America, poor people can get Welfare and Medicare and homeless shelters and soup kitchens galore. Not to mention there's always an entry-level job at McDonald's or Walmart... a way for ANYONE to get a start at a good life. I worked as a janitor and newspaper boy for years, getting good work experience and a work ethic.

Now I realize there are those who are mentally ill or addicted to drugs who can't do these things, but in my opinion, most everyone can. That's what's so great about America.

You'd be surprised, though. People who live in the more city sprawl can have access to these, but there's people out there in the super rural areas that are just living in beyond squallor, but are used to it/are mountain folk. Granted, there's not NEARLY as many genuinely horridly off people as there are in the rest of the world, but we do have pockets of our own.

*pops out again*

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:45 pm 
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lahimatoa wrote:
We need to define "poverty." Poverty in America is not poverty in Africa or South America. In America, poor people can get Welfare and Medicare and homeless shelters and soup kitchens galore. Not to mention there's always an entry-level job at McDonald's or Walmart... a way for ANYONE to get a start at a good life. I worked as a janitor and newspaper boy for years, getting good work experience and a work ethic.

Now I realize there are those who are mentally ill or addicted to drugs who can't do these things, but in my opinion, most everyone can. That's what's so great about America.

[/soapbox]

Okay, I'm going to change gears here on this discussion: what do you think could alleviate inner-city violence?


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:56 am 
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Capt. Ido Nos wrote:
You'd be surprised, though. People who live in the more city sprawl can have access to these, but there's people out there in the super rural areas that are just living in beyond squallor, but are used to it/are mountain folk.


But that's just it, most of those mountain folk are darn proud of their lifestyle. There's a kid from West Virginia in one of my classes this semester, and he's a strange one, but proud of it. I don't think he'd take a "better" lifestyle if you gave it to him for free.

Quote:
Okay, I'm going to change gears here on this discussion: what do you think could alleviate inner-city violence?


Part of the problem is that it's a cycle now. Kids are born into it, see no other way to live but through violence, and that's that. We need to break that. Breaking up gangs seems to help. Salt Lake City used to have a big problem with gangs, then about ten years ago they really started cracking down on them and now there's hardly one at all. A focused police task force can do wonders there.

In other ways, it's the culture. There are plenty of inner-city kids who try to make a life for themselves; they work hard at school, get a job, apply for college... but then their friends and neighbors hate them for "selling out." That's got to stop.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:48 am 
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See, the thing about gangs is that its a mindset too. Inner city kids want to be apart of something where they feel loved. A Gang usually shows them a form of platonic love but would easily sell them out for a few bucks, but thats all they see when they look for it. Their parents are probably working and don't have time for them, so they look elsewhere for it.

What would be a good start is both after school activities that are actually fun, and then a crackdown on gang violence, so that way our next generation of kids grows up with these after school activities, and todays kids who are already in gangs can be persuaded to join said activities.

The idea is to just waste the kids time after school so they don't have time to hang out with bad people.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Why the hell would kids want to hang out in school after it's over when school is so terrible in the first place? Who actually, earnestly enjoyed their time in school? Primary education in the United States is just daycare with tons of arbitrary rules only in place to condition people to lack critical thinking in order to be subordinate to authority.


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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:07 pm 
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...How old are you? : /

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Quote:
Why the hell would kids want to hang out in school after it's over when school is so terrible in the first place? Who actually, earnestly enjoyed their time in school?


Oh, I don't know, I'd say 95% of everybody that went through school.

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 Post subject: Re: '08 Elections!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Mikes! wrote:
Why the hell would kids want to hang out in school after it's over when school is so terrible in the first place? Who actually, earnestly enjoyed their time in school? Primary education in the United States is just daycare with tons of arbitrary rules only in place to condition people to lack critical thinking in order to be subordinate to authority.

oooooh, you're SUCH A REBEL

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