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Is underage drinking wrong?
Yes, God says it's wrong 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Yes, it's against the law 43%  43%  [ 25 ]
Maybe, but I don't care 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
No 28%  28%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:57 am 
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You missed Didy's post, MooKoo. Two posts above your first one. Alcohol does impair judgment, yes, but is just one glass with dinner at home so bad?

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:09 am 
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IantheGecko wrote:
You missed Didy's post, MooKoo. Two posts above your first one. Alcohol does impair judgment, yes, but is just one glass with dinner at home so bad?

IMO, yes.

At the end of my post there I was talking about legal and illegal drugs.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:37 am 
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DS_Kid wrote:
Okay, an extension of one of my questions asked in the girlfriend/boyfriend thread: What is a class of 13 year-olds doing drinking? While I don't mind that people do underage drinking if done responsibly, that is seriously too young for anybody.



Well, my idiot friends often enjoy vodka mixed with Gatorade.



:rolleyes:

Of course its too young, I think 21 is too young! From what I've seen, WAY too many 21 year olds are too irresponsible to drink.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:32 am 
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MooKoo wrote:
Yah', but think about the damage you do to yourself. Or does your body not matter to you?


There is no severe bodily damage inflicted by lightly to moderately drinking alcohol. In fact, light drinking can even improve health!

MooKoo wrote:
Also think about what happens after using drugs. I mean, look what they do to you, like that won't hurt your friends and family emotionally?

Its bad man, and thats all there is to it.


Uh, my friends really don't care what I put in my body. And they shouldn't, as long as I am not being destructive, which I have constantly stressed. I haven't done a drug in my life, and that includes alcohol, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Honestly, your post sounds a lot like you're regurgitating DARE info and PSAs and you know nothing at all about it.

Dewy wrote:
Of course its too young, I think 21 is too young! From what I've seen, WAY too many 21 year olds are too irresponsible to drink.


Don't you think this could be because of the sudden burst of freedom? I mean, something's withheld from you all your life, and then you finally get it. And the weaker-willed of us lose control. Loss of control in underage drinking might have a lot to do with schools and the media constantly preaching "no alcohol, EVER!" Countries where the drinking age is very low or where there is no drinking age force parents to teach their kids about responsible alcohol use earlies. And in those countries, alcoholism and DWI is much less prevalent.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:20 pm 
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MooKoo wrote:
IantheGecko wrote:
You missed Didy's post, MooKoo. Two posts above your first one. Alcohol does impair judgment, yes, but is just one glass with dinner at home so bad?

IMO, yes.

At the end of my post there I was talking about legal and illegal drugs.

I disagree. In fact, current medical studies have shown that moderate amounts of alcohol can be beneficial to one's health. And if one is drinking in an environment (like at home) where they are not likely to do something under impaired judgment, then there's no reason why they shouldn't. Other than the law, that is. I do not see how moderate responsible alcohol use can be either wrong or dangerous, and you really haven't demonstrated why it should be considered such. Can you cite me any reason to believe that moderate responsible alcohol use is dangerous or wrong?

Illegal drugs are a different matter entirely. Many illegal drugs - cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, etc. - have been proven dangerous even in small quantities. But this isn't a discussion about illegal drugs, but about alcohol use, and so I would ask you to keep your attention there and not drag in illegal drugs as a red herring.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:18 pm 
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I know I won't ever even try alcohol. I have a family history on my dad's side of alcoholism. I most likely have that gene. I'm not even going to chance it.

But I think even if I didn't have a family history of alcoholism, I too look around me at people I know who drink, and I do not like what I see. I see people who can't hold a steady job, can't keep their driver's license, get pregnant when they never wanted a baby this young, dump their kids on other family members because they want to go out and party on the weekends and get hammered, and people who are abusive toward others, especially family members.

And I know Dids you are talking about drinking in moderation, but I guess I don't see a lot of people who just drink in moderation. I heard on the radio the other day that studies have shown that the difference between people who drink very lightly and heavy drinkers. In other words, it seems that people are starting to only drink very lightly, or they drink very heavily. Especially in college age people.

Anyway, yeah. Those are my thoughts about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:35 pm 
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DS_Kid wrote:
Einoo T. Spork wrote:
You're surprised that 13-year-olds are drinking? Are you really that naïve?

I mean, I agree with you, but come on. Don't tell me you weren't expecting it.

I expect that some 13-year-olds drink, I just didn't expect half a classroom of 13-year-olds to be drinking.

There's a couple 11-year-olds and about ten 12-year-olds, too. You come around my school once you'd instantly see how screwed up some of these kids are.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:46 pm 
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While I can't say anything terribly new to this thread, I feel the need to at least state this bluntly:

It is illegal to do drink underage, so any underage drinking, by definition, breaks the law, so any debating about doing it should actually be geared towards changing the legislation, first. Second, teenagers in America and the world over are by and large not mature enough to handle the stuff, *especially* the kids (let me say that again, KIDS) who do want to drink underage that I see being the least mature of the entire crowd! The most mature of the crowd realize the dangers associated with drinking outweighing the health benefits, and choose to at the very least, wait until they are allowed to.

[/two cents]

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:52 pm 
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Didymus wrote:
MooKoo wrote:
IantheGecko wrote:
You missed Didy's post, MooKoo. Two posts above your first one. Alcohol does impair judgment, yes, but is just one glass with dinner at home so bad?

IMO, yes.

At the end of my post there I was talking about legal and illegal drugs.

I disagree. In fact, current medical studies have shown that moderate amounts of alcohol can be beneficial to one's health.


I've heard this many times, but I believe it only applies to wine. I also believe that that is only because of grapes. But one indisputable fact is alcohol is a poison. A minor one, but still a poison.

And on underage drinking, I just don't understand it, but I'm a prude when it comes to the law.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:19 pm 
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Quote:
I've heard this many times, but I believe it only applies to wine. I also believe that that is only because of grapes.


Nope:
Wikipedia wrote:
In moderation, alcohol consumption has significant health benefits. These include a lower risk of heart attack [4], lower risk of diabetes [5], lower risk of Alzheimer's disease [6], reduced risk of stroke [7], and an increase in overall longevity.[8] One study found that a person fifty-five or older who consumed 1-3 drinks daily was half as likely to develop dementia linked to poor oxygen to the brain as a person who did not. Additionally, because alcohol increases 'good' cholesterol and decreases the 'bad' cholesterol, there are indications that frequent doses in moderation reduces the risk of blood clots and stroke. These benefits are all counteracted by excessive consumption.[9]


Also, if you'd continue reading the article, you might note that all detrimental effects of alcohol consumption are related to excessive use, not moderate use.

It is true that there are specific health benefits associated both with wine and beer.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:02 am 
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Before even talking about the age-legality of drinking, I think it's important to establish that any drinking that goes on should be done responsibly. Responsible drinking is a practice altogether lacking among most of the "drinking public" in America, and a good argument for a minimum legal drinking age (apart from the exacerbated effect that alcohol has on children's development and smaller body mass) is that kids aren't born with responsibility--they need to develop it! Whether you're religious or secular, I think that Paul's admonition in I Corinthians 10:12, "Let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall," is a good common-sense consideration here. The potential consequences for erring on the side of caution are much less destructive than the results of irresponsible drinking. If you abstain, there's not much worse that could happen to you beyond a few missed social opportunities, which can probably be made up through other social avenues. In contrast, the short-term and long-term effects of alcohol overconsumption range from vomiting and hangovers to automobile accidents and developing alcoholism.

As for the issue of underage drinking itself, I pretty much agree with Didymus. However, I do think allowing one's children to sample alcohol under supervision at home might send the message that "it's okay to break the law in small things as long as you're responsible about it." I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, and it's probably something that parents should consider if they're thinking of letting their children drink while supervised in certain situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:42 am 
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DeathbyChiasmus wrote:
Before even talking about the age-legality of drinking, I think it's important to establish that any drinking that goes on should be done responsibly. Responsible drinking is a practice altogether lacking among most of the "drinking public" in America, and a good argument for a minimum legal drinking age (apart from the exacerbated effect that alcohol has on children's development and smaller body mass) is that kids aren't born with responsibility--they need to develop it! Whether you're religious or secular, I think that Paul's admonition in I Corinthians 10:12, "Let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall," is a good common-sense consideration here. The potential consequences for erring on the side of caution are much less destructive than the results of irresponsible drinking. If you abstain, there's not much worse that could happen to you beyond a few missed social opportunities, which can probably be made up through other social avenues. In contrast, the short-term and long-term effects of alcohol overconsumption range from vomiting and hangovers to automobile accidents and developing alcoholism.

As for the issue of underage drinking itself, I pretty much agree with Didymus. However, I do think allowing one's children to sample alcohol under supervision at home might send the message that "it's okay to break the law in small things as long as you're responsible about it." I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, and it's probably something that parents should consider if they're thinking of letting their children drink while supervised in certain situations.

You made a lot of points that I wanted to, but never formed into words.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:10 am 
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God, I love wine.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:31 am 
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Incidentally, I'm kind of fond of it myself. Not so keen on beers, though.

Of course, it's legal for me to drink wine, seeing as how I'm of the legal drinking age. *narrowly avoids committing a Toastpaint*

Pops says: "Stay on target!"

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:22 am 
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sci-fi greg wrote:
But one indisputable fact is alcohol is a poison. A minor one, but still a poison.


Pretty much everything is poisonous, actually. It's just a matter of how much it takes to kill you. Just about every substance has a lethal dose, though of course for many substances that dose is extremely high. But it exists.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:48 am 
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I know everyone here isn't Mormon, but may I direct you to our Words of Wisdom.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 89

This is why I am so strongly convicted against the drinking of alcohol. Please read, don't just rub it off as some Mormon crap, and that I'm trying to convert you. I tire of hearing this whenever I bring up something out of our scriptures. I would just like to show you where I get my conviction that drinking is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:35 am 
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I do note the distinction between commandment and word of wisdom, meaning, I take it, that this document isn't so much condemning alcohol as morally evil, but rather pragmatically unwise. That is well and good - assuming I understand that distinction correctly - because if it did declare it morally wrong, then Jesus' own words would completely undermine it.

That being the case, once again, I would cite the facts to counter it: as stated above, alcohol in small quantities has been shown to be beneficial rather than harmful. And both wine and beer have additional beneficial properties as well. That being the case, I cannot agree with the statement, even on the grounds of a supposed health risk.

Quote:
As for the issue of underage drinking itself, I pretty much agree with Didymus. However, I do think allowing one's children to sample alcohol under supervision at home might send the message that "it's okay to break the law in small things as long as you're responsible about it." I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, and it's probably something that parents should consider if they're thinking of letting their children drink while supervised in certain situations.

But let me clarify this: my statement was regarding the morality of underage drinking, not the legality. Breaking the law under any circumstance is irresponsible; there are always risks.

My point simply is this: there is no magic age at which moderate alcohol use becomes moral. The United States has so far settled on 21 for some reason as the age it becomes legal, but considering that people older than that get drunk and do stupid things, it seems to me the age is almost arbitrary. That being the case, I do not see why it should be considered morally wrong for a parent to give their teenager a small glass of wine at dinner.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Yeah. There are teenagers out there who drink more responsibly than adults.

Those people who do dumb things while drinking are ruining it for the rest of us...

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Schmelen wrote:
Yeah. There are teenagers out there who drink more responsibly than adults.
But as I said earlier, alcohol is a lot more harmful to them because their brains aren't developed, even if they are drinking as responsibly as adults. That's why I support the drinking age as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:06 pm 
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Yeah. But honestly, I don't mind if my brain isn't as good as it could be. I'd never have used it to it's full potential anyway. I don't have any big ambitions either.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:10 pm 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Schmelen wrote:
Yeah. There are teenagers out there who drink more responsibly than adults.
But as I said earlier, alcohol is a lot more harmful to them because their brains aren't developed, even if they are drinking as responsibly as adults. That's why I support the drinking age as it is.


Can I see some citations for this, please? Norway has no drinking age, and the people there have very long lifespans.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:40 pm 
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Lunar Jesty wrote:
ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Schmelen wrote:
Yeah. There are teenagers out there who drink more responsibly than adults.
But as I said earlier, alcohol is a lot more harmful to them because their brains aren't developed, even if they are drinking as responsibly as adults. That's why I support the drinking age as it is.


Can I see some citations for this, please? Norway has no drinking age, and the people there have very long lifespans.

Well, I can't find my old anatomy textbook, but I found this site:
http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/Adolescenc ... cent3.html
Quote:
the available evidence suggests that adolescents are more vulnerable than adults to the effects of alcohol on both memory and memory-related brain function,

And it's mostly discussed on this page.

As for Norway, I would guess that their long lifespans could be due to (a) alcohol at an early age, while it can damage memory and learning abilities, might not shorten one's actual life, (b) their popular beverages (at least the ones kids are drinking) don't have nearly as much alcohol in them.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:38 pm 
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It is bad in the way that it's illegal and what-not, but that isn't because kids aren't responsible enough or whatever.
It has been proven that, when taken irresponsibly, brain damage in developing minds, and that is why the law prohibits it.
But I don't think a bit with dinner it bad, it has also been proven that a glass of red wine a day is healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:28 pm 
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I do not think that underage drinking should be illegal. Nor do I think that it is immoral. Perhaps it is because of my own high level of wisdom when partaking, but I am also generally big into personal responsibility. Instead of blanketing everyone with a law, it should be based on the individual's ability to drink and think in a responsible way. It would be much better to have a test of practical application. This would reward intelligent and wise people and ban the people who aren't mature or are just plain foolish regardless of age. There are young people that are very mature and plenty of older people who are never mature enough to be trusted with alcohol (among other things). While testing may not be feasible in a practical sense, this thread appears to be more about theoretics anyway. One's morality should not be influenced by what the law happens to say. There are many immoral laws, now and in the past. "Because the law says so" is never a good reason to do or not do things. The law's function is to tell us what will happen to us if we proceed to do the prohibited thing. If one is willing to take responsibility and that punishment if he is caught, then the law's power is broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:50 pm 
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I'm working on this idea where the occasional, and I mean occasional, bout of irresponsible drinking is necessary to lead a complete life of many experiences. Sometimes it's good to do dangerous or dumb things in order to learn from them.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:22 am 
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Mikes! wrote:
I'm working on this idea where the occasional, and I mean occasional, bout of irresponsible drinking is necessary to lead a complete life of many experiences. Sometimes it's good to do dangerous or dumb things in order to learn from them.

Or you could just learn the easy way and see how something ruins someone else's life.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:56 am 
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MooKoo wrote:
Or you could just learn the easy way and see how something ruins someone else's life.
It's actually better to learn from experience and Im speaking to you from experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:30 am 
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MooKoo wrote:
Mikes! wrote:
I'm working on this idea where the occasional, and I mean occasional, bout of irresponsible drinking is necessary to lead a complete life of many experiences. Sometimes it's good to do dangerous or dumb things in order to learn from them.

Or you could just learn the easy way and see how something ruins someone else's life.
It's not the same at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:23 am 
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Isn't the lesson usually learned simply "don't do that", which you don't need to learn if you're not inclined to do it in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Alcohol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:31 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
Isn't the lesson usually learned simply "don't do that", which you don't need to learn if you're not inclined to do it in the first place?

I'm a stern advocate of "you can never truly know until you've done it."


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