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Hillary or Barack?
Hillary Clinton 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Barack Obama 63%  63%  [ 42 ]
Neither 33%  33%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 67
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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:36 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Is the question of whether or not an aborted fetus a human life lost or not a moral one?


Just to be clear, I said "in the sense that [Rogue Leader] is using the term" because Rogue Leader obviously meant "legislating morality" in the sense of things like legislating against gambling, drinking, smoking, and so on -- things that are clearly merely personal vices. I'm pretty sure Rogue Leader didn't intend to lump murder in there, even though it's obviously a moral issue.

Now, you seem to be saying that the definition of life is a moral issue, and I'm not sure I agree with that. It's true that many (though by no means all) people who argue against abortion are Christians, but I don't think anything in the Bible really defines what human life is as far as this is concerned. The fact is that it's impossible to define "human life" in objective terms. It is whatever you want it to be. The problem is that not everybody has the same definition...

Of course, I could argue that if I were aborted (I'm an illegitimate child), I'd be dead. On the other hand, I don't really feel that's terribly different from if I were never conceived in the first place. Either way, I wouldn't exist. Yet the same argument could even be applied to a baby after birth, and most people, even almost all abortionists, find that idea abhorrent. Life's a funny thing, I guess.

So on the whole I'm pretty ambivalent about abortion, except that I think if you didn't want a child, you shouldn't have been messing around in the first place (or you should have been more careful when you were)...

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:41 pm 
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I wasn't saying that it was a moral question, I was asking if it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Replace "saying" with "suggesting", then. ;)

I can't really speak for Rogue Leader, but you still have my thoughts on that matter, regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Kef's right, I was talking about the morality I was talking about was more along the lines of personal time, like gambling and the like. I am among those who believe that murder is wrong, and that legislating it is quite constitutional.

And last bit of abortion from me: I think that most women who get abortions think it out pretty well before they do it, and it's their responsibility to make sure that they DON'T get pregnant in the first place. Third trimester abortions should be illegal, IMO. If the baby is capable of living on its own outside of the womb and proceed to live a normal life(I don't know when that is, I am not an abortion or baby expert), it shouldn't be aborted.

Anyway, Obama seems to be gaining some good speed now. If he gets Texas and Ohio, it will look very bleak for Mrs. Clinton.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:57 pm 
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Gobama!

^ best campaign slogan ever

Really, Clinton's washed up. Although I'd still vote for her over any non-Democratic candidate.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:01 pm 
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I would really like to see an Obama / Biden ticket. The two men I respect the most in modern politics running the country. Yeah, that would be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:14 pm 
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:

Really, Clinton's washed up. Although I'd still vote for her over any non-Democratic candidate.


I don't get people that vote by party. There's not much of a difference betwen Old White Guy Donkey and Old White Guy Elephant.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Rogue Leader wrote:
If the baby is capable of living on its own outside of the womb and proceed to live a normal life(I don't know when that is, I am not an abortion or baby expert), it shouldn't be aborted.
That seems like kind of a weird line to draw... especially since we don't know when that is, and as our technology increases, that line will get sooner and sooner.
The Noid wrote:
Marshmallow Roast wrote:

Really, Clinton's washed up. Although I'd still vote for her over any non-Democratic candidate.


I don't get people that vote by party. There's not much of a difference betwen Old White Guy Donkey and Old White Guy Elephant.
That's true. But people are starting too less and less. I've heard that there are more 'independents' and 'split tickets' than ever before in this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:44 pm 
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The Noid wrote:
There's not much of a difference betwen Old White Guy Donkey and Old White Guy Elephant.


Or in this case, Old White Guy Elephant and Old White Woman/Middle-Aged Black Man Donkey. ;)

Anyway, by themselves, possibly not. But, the thing is, politicians have a strong tendency to vote with the party line. (Also, I suspect that this is true more of Republicans than it is of Democrats, although that would be hard to prove.) And the President is the one person who Congress has to get a law through. Given that there are both Democrats and Republicans in Congress, and that the President is in a position to favor one or the other... well, you see where this is going.

Now, I'm not saying that this will necessarily be true of a given candidate, but, all else being equal, I think there is a potentially big difference between a Republican and Democratic President, even if they both are fairly moderate in their views.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Marshmallow Roast wrote:
Gobama!

^ best campaign slogan ever

Really, Clinton's washed up. Although I'd still vote for her over any non-Democratic candidate.

For Heaven's sake, Republicans aren't freaking VAMPIRES. (Except Dick Cheney.)

Come on, even I would vote for McCain if it came down to it. Granted, he's apparently not a "real" Republican, but still.

If Obama was running though, McCain wouldn't even be given a thought at all.

Of course this is all hypothetical because I can't vote.

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Last edited by Einoo T. Spork on Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:

If Obama was running though he wouldn't even be given a thought at all.


BECAUSE HE'S BLACK

Anyways, the primary votes are almost over, aren't they? We should have a good idea at who's gonna be running pretty soon, shouldn't we?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:51 pm 
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I'm actually against voting by party. However, all the rep. candidates suck, so it makes sense to say "anyone not republican" right now.

EDIT: Wait, Einoo, you would vote for McCain? You're kidding!

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:57 pm 
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The Noid wrote:
Anyways, the primary votes are almost over, aren't they? We should have a good idea at who's gonna be running pretty soon, shouldn't we?

Well, we should know who the republican candidate is right now.

The Superdelegate issue should make the democratic side a bit more interesting (and by interesting, I mean dirtily contended).

Neither dem. candidate has a clear lead right now. If this should hold true until the convention, then the superdelegates could decide the race, even deciding against the candidate that has the most votes and/or delegates going into the convention.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:12 am 
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When I said "I wouldn't give him a thought at all", the "him" in that sentence was McCain. I realize now it was ambiguous.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:15 am 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
When I said "I wouldn't give him a thought at all", the "him" in that sentence was McCain. I realize now it was ambiguous.
What if it came down to McCain and Hillary?
(Seriously, if it was McCain vs. Hillary, this race would have the worst public speaking ever...)

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:27 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Einoo T. Spork wrote:
When I said "I wouldn't give him a thought at all", the "him" in that sentence was McCain. I realize now it was ambiguous.
What if it came down to McCain and Hillary?
(Seriously, if it was McCain vs. Hillary, this race would have the worst public speaking ever...)

I could go either way. McCain has a lot of the right ideas, but Hillary'd get us out of Iraq...

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:35 am 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Einoo T. Spork wrote:
When I said "I wouldn't give him a thought at all", the "him" in that sentence was McCain. I realize now it was ambiguous.
What if it came down to McCain and Hillary?
(Seriously, if it was McCain vs. Hillary, this race would have the worst public speaking ever...)
Hillary'd get us out of Iraq...

No. No she would not. And that is something I can's say enough. We're gonna be in Iraq for at least another year, and pulling out would be absolutely useless.

Thus, McCain has all the right ideas, and Hillary has all the right ideas that are completely useless and not viable.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:48 am 
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Wow, Abu.

Wow.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:49 am 
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Say something intelligent if you disagree, Rusty.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:50 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
No. No she would not. And that is something I can's say enough. We're gonna be in Iraq for at least another year, and pulling out would be absolutely useless.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:52 am 
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Thank you for that profound statement.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see anything that we can accomplish from pulling out of Iraq.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:53 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see anything that we can accomplish from pulling out of Iraq.


I don't see anything that we can accomplish by staying in. But I can certainly think of further things we can screw up if we do.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:54 am 
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Probably so, but it would really hurt us if we pulled out.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:11 am 
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It will keep hurting everyone else if we stay in.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:16 am 
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Therefore, it is a lose-lose situation. We should stay in to prove our power if you think that's our only option.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:22 am 
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Not really a lose lose, just figure out the amount of damage it would do to us if we left, and how much it would do to them if we stay.

If we stay, we're killing people. If we leave, we're losing money. Which is more important?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:28 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Not really a lose lose, just figure out the amount of damage it would do to us if we left, and how much it would do to them if we stay.

If we stay, we're killing people. If we leave, we're losing money. Which is more important?

Also, if we stay, we're losing billions of dollars, and if we leave plenty of people will die.

It's pretty much the same either way, except leaving would leave the place in a lot worse shape than we found it.

Leaving now would also make the deaths of thousands of soldiers and Iraqis completely in vain.

We broke it. We need to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:33 am 
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We're not making anything better by staying, are we? We're there for what reason?

And we are losing money by staying. Sorry about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:49 am 
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Leaving now would also make the deaths of thousands of soldiers and Iraqis completely in vain.
They've already died in vain. Whether we stay or leave the futile war doesn't affect it.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:19 am 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
Therefore, it is a lose-lose situation. We should stay in to prove our power if you think that's our only option.

Having the world's leading military constantly flouted by a rag-tag militia from a destroyed country really proves what kinda power we wield.

Quote:
Leaving now would also make the deaths of thousands of soldiers and Iraqis completely in vain.

Why did we go to war with Iraq again? Oh right, a false pretext about weapons of mass destruction that never existed. How did we justify it after being proven as a false pretext? Oh right, bringing "freedom and democracy" to a country by allowing open civil war and bloodshed to run rampant in a country which already was suffering under a brutal dictatorship. I'd say that all those soldiers have already died pretty dishonorably and in vain.

The problem with Iraq is the fact that a war is being waged. Were we to retreat the troops and actually reconcile with the people of Iraq and peacefully and truly rebuild their infrastructures and pave the way for democratic government in a way which doesn't act in our best interest, but in their best interest, then the situation would be fixed.


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