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Hillary or Barack?
Hillary Clinton 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Barack Obama 63%  63%  [ 42 ]
Neither 33%  33%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 67
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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:33 am 
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Mikes! wrote:
Were we to retreat the troops and actually reconcile with the people of Iraq and peacefully and truly rebuild their infrastructures and pave the way for democratic government in a way which doesn't act in our best interest, but in their best interest, then the situation would be fixed.
Ehhhhhh, good luck with that one. They aren't just going to do what we tell them.
The Snork wrote:
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Leaving now would also make the deaths of thousands of soldiers and Iraqis completely in vain.
They've already died in vain. Whether we stay or leave the futile war doesn't affect it.

No, I'd say if they can finish their job and leave Iraq in better shape than they found it, then those deaths were all part of the process and not in vain.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:57 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
Mikes! wrote:
Were we to retreat the troops and actually reconcile with the people of Iraq and peacefully and truly rebuild their infrastructures and pave the way for democratic government in a way which doesn't act in our best interest, but in their best interest, then the situation would be fixed.
Ehhhhhh, good luck with that one. They aren't just going to do what we tell them.
Iraqi resistance exists because the rebuilding of Iraq thus far largely suits US interests, as opposed to their own. It's not our right to tell other countries how to run the show anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:06 am 
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ed 'lim' smilde wrote:
The Snork wrote:
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Leaving now would also make the deaths of thousands of soldiers and Iraqis completely in vain.
They've already died in vain. Whether we stay or leave the futile war doesn't affect it.

No, I'd say if they can finish their job and leave Iraq in better shape than they found it, then those deaths were all part of the process and not in vain.


I doubt that would ever happen. We're not doing much to fix anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:40 am 
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Says who?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:11 pm 
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AbuGrape45 wrote:
No. No she would not. And that is something I can's say enough. We're gonna be in Iraq for at least another year, and pulling out would be absolutely useless.


So...Hilary would stay in Iraq based on your opinion?

I'm neutral on the war. We really didn't need to go there to begin with but it's too risky to stay out.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:59 pm 
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No. It's not viable. It can't be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Yeah, why are we there in the first place? That's a good question.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Rusty wrote:
Yeah, why are we there in the first place? That's a good question.

We were there because we thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (a claim bolstered by the fact that they were doing everything they could to keep UN weapons inspectors from doing their job.).

The claim turned out to be untrue. Hussein himself even said he was bluffing in an attempt to scare the west into backing down. It turns out that this was the worst played bluff ever.

Of course, the "we shouldn't have gone in in the first place" argument is moot. We're there. We broke it. We have to fix it. If we don't stay until we fix it, we'll be going back.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:09 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
The claim turned out to be untrue. Hussein himself even said he was bluffing in an attempt to scare the west into backing down. It turns out that this was the worst played bluff ever.
No, he bluffed to keep Iran away. As far as Saddam was concerned, the result of Desert Storm was the end of relations with the West.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:10 pm 
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Beyond the Grave wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
The claim turned out to be untrue. Hussein himself even said he was bluffing in an attempt to scare the west into backing down. It turns out that this was the worst played bluff ever.
No, he bluffed to keep Iran away. As far as Saddam was concerned, the result of Desert Storm was the end of relations with the West.

It was still a poorly thought out bluff, considering the consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:30 am 
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Oh god, did anyone just see Obama's speech in Houston? It was brilliant!

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Meh. If Hilary gets elected, I'm moving to England. And if Obama wins, he'll use his super powers. I heard he once ate a kid!


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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:21 pm 
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It's time for change!!!!

YES WE CAN!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Obama is coming down tomorrow, and I'M GONNA GET TO SEE HIM!

I wanna shake his hand, take a picture, and get his autograph, but I don't know what to get him to autograph...

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Obama won again.

2.5 delegates.

That's right, two and one half delegates.

Gotta love America.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Okay, so what is the chance of Hillary getting more delegates?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:24 pm 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
but I don't know what to get him to autograph...

Just use one of those 'OBAMA' signs that they try to give everyone. Oh wait, they just say 'CHANGE' now... maybe he'll sign Change for his autograph... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:35 pm 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
Okay, so what is the chance of Hillary getting more delegates?

Pretty good. The Superdelegates will end up winning it for her, even if Obama has more delegates (as chosen by the people).

Also, she's going to wind up with the Michigan and Florida delegates, even if Obama didn't run there. He didn't run there because the National Democratic Party told both states they'd lose their delegates if they moved up their primaries (and they did).
Most of the contenders removed their names from the ballot. Hillary didn't. She won, although in Michigan "uncommitted" got more votes than she did.
They'll seat them for her, though, just wait and see.

At least we'll get another Bush presidency after Clinton.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:48 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
At least we'll get another Bush presidency after Clinton.


what

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:03 am 
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Rusty wrote:
StrongRad wrote:
At least we'll get another Bush presidency after Clinton.


what

For the last few elections, its been Bush, Clinton, Bush. If Clinton wins, then Jed Bush is probably gonna run in 2016.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:11 am 
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:
If Clinton wins, then Jed Bush is probably gonna run in 2016.
First off it's Jeb and second, his brother screwed up any chance that he would have at the presidency.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:19 am 
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And third, they'll start running in 2012 if Hillary gets elected...

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:16 am 
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Yeah, but I'm confused as to why Rad would be exited about that at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:22 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Yeah, but I'm confused as to why Rad would be exited about that at all.

I don't have an irrational hatred of Bush and all things Bush.
Also, it's sort of a battle cry I've gotten my Obama fan friends (who do hate Bush and everything he's ever thought about) using.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:48 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
I don't have an irrational hatred of Bush and all things Bush.


As long as you remember that hatred of Bush isn't necessarily irrational. ;)

Anyway, the superdelegates thing really is worrying. Obviously, Clinton is far more politically connected than Obama is. You know Bill Clinton's gotta have connections out the wazoo, and his connections become her connections...

So all we can really do is hope the superdelegates do the right thing (by that I don't mean choosing Obama, but either choosing who they really think should be President, or even better, going with the will of the people). And, unfortunately, expecting a large group of policitians to do the right thing pretty much deserves the world's biggest "lol".

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:25 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
I don't have an irrational hatred of Bush and all things Bush.


So right off the bat, you think that the hatred people have for our current President is irrational?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:07 am 
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*pops head in for a second*

A good amount of the time, yes, but not all the time, but that's another can of worms that if someone's interested in my TWUT they can pm me about it.

*pops out again*

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:57 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
Pretty good. The Superdelegates will end up winning it for her, even if Obama has more delegates (as chosen by the people).


That would end up being the worst election ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:10 pm 
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Unfortunately I will be turning 18 like a month after the election, so I will just miss it.

My state chose Hillary in the primaries, but I would have chosen Obama. One of the main reasons is I think he would have a much better chance of beating McCain than Clinton could. I think if Obama gets the nomination, he'll win, and if Clinton gets the nomination, McCain will win. McCain seems to be more a middle-of-the-road type of candidate than Clinton.

Obama '08 - heck yeah

lahimatoa wrote:
It's time for change!!!!

YES WE CAN!!!

Fun fact: Turns out he lifted a lot of his speech from Massachusetts governor Deval Patrick. That motto is actually a paraphrasing of Deval's "Together We Can". But it'll be okay since Deval is a huge Obama supporter and probably told him to do it in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama or Clinton?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:14 pm 
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I don't get why everybody makes such a big deal out of people using other people's words in speeches, especially when you use your rival's words. It's just basically saying "screw you, I'm gonna win, here's your catchphrase comin' outta my mouth to stick it to you" and plagiarism shouldn't be brought into it.

Deval is a cool name.

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