Genetic Engineering

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:54 pm

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

And furthermore, it is illegal to kill a dog or cat or anything.

Are you sure? What about animal euthanasia? Do you have to prove you have a good reason, or can anyone just do it legally?

TOT
PD!

Marshmallow Roast · **Posted:** Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:58 pm

Euthanasia I dunno about, but I know you'll get in trouble with the law if you stick a knife in your cat and grill up some catburgers.

Oh, and as far as the whole "murder is illegal" thing: abortion ain't illegal before the third trimester, for the most part.

Rusty · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:24 am

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

As far as I am aware, murder is illegal, while killing animals is not.

So, uh, something is automatically morally sound as long as it's legal?[/quote]

YES

YES

YES

Thank you.

Parlod · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:01 pm

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

And furthermore, it is illegal to kill a dog or cat or anything. They just make exceptions for cows and chickens because the majority of Americans like the way they taste. Not to say that Americans wouldn't like the taste of dog or cat if they tried it, but hey, nobody loves cows. They sure ain't man's best friend.

Of course, that's another debate entirely, but it is illegal to kill some animals.

Endangered ones maybe. Cats and dogs get killed by humans all the time. No one is arrested for hitting a dog or cat with a car.

Marshmallow Roast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:55 pm

Not hitting them with a car, but if you wanna kill and eat a cow, that's fine, whereas killing and eating your dog is illegal.

Similarly, the penalties are far less severe for accidentally killing some person than for intentionally murdering them.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:06 am

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

Not hitting them with a car, but if you wanna kill and eat a cow, that's fine, whereas killing and eating your dog is illegal.

Off topic thing to think about: "Why is it illegal to kill a cow and eat it, but illegal to kill a dog and eat it?"

Jitka · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:08 am

StrongRad wrote:

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

Not hitting them with a car, but if you wanna kill and eat a cow, that's fine, whereas killing and eating your dog is illegal.

Off topic thing to think about: "Why is it illegal to kill a cow and eat it, but illegal to kill a dog and eat it?"

A dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:27 am

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

StrongRad wrote:

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

Not hitting them with a car, but if you wanna kill and eat a cow, that's fine, whereas killing and eating your dog is illegal.

Off topic thing to think about: "Why is it illegal to kill a cow and eat it, but illegal to kill a dog and eat it?"

A dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?

Jitka · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:47 am

StrongRad wrote:

Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?

Well, we'd have to be talkin' about one charming [rule 6] pig. I mean, he'd have to be ten times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm saying?

but anyway, croastpaint.

Parlod · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:50 pm

I know people who have intentionally killed their own pet-type animals without worrying about any legal repercussions.

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:36 pm

Why are we talking about eating Animals in the wrong thread AGAIN?

Back on topic: Genetic engineering can and probably will do amazing things, that is, if the bible belt pushers and the pansies up in Washington get over the fact that a dead fetus is just a fetus and that using it for science is better than wasting a perfectly good dead baby by way of the furnace.

Marshmallow Roast · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:34 pm

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

A dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

Just wanna say that cattle have personalities too, it's just that most people never live close enough to them to find that out.

But either way, there's no way a tiny, dividing ball of cells (which is what a fertilized egg is, long before it becomes a human) has a personality. Killing it is fine. Eating it is... odd, since it's probably too small even to see.

Parlod · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:37 pm

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

A dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

Just wanna say that cattle have personalities too, it's just that most people never live close enough to them to find that out.

Sorry, I'll only be off topic one more time. I've raised cows. In fact, I just went out to water them 10 minutes ago. Yes, they have personalities; I've come to the conclusion that, besides sheep, cows are THE dumbest animals on the planet.

Thank you.

Jitka · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:38 pm

Parlod wrote:

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

A dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

Just wanna say that cattle have personalities too, it's just that most people never live close enough to them to find that out.

Sorry, I'll only be off topic one more time. I've raised cows. In fact, I just went outt o water them 10 minutes ago. Yes, they have personalities; I've come to the conclusion that, besides sheep, cows are THE dumbest animals on the planet.

Thank you.

Turkeys will drown in the rain because they're too stupid to realize they can't breathe...

Parlod · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:42 pm

Parlod wrote:

I've come to the conclusion that, besides sheep and turkeys, cows are THE dumbest animals on the planet.

Thank you.

Fixed.

furrykef · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:21 am

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

Turkeys will drown in the rain because they're too stupid to realize they can't breathe...

False.

Toastpaint...

Jitka · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:52 am

furrykef wrote:

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

Turkeys will drown in the rain because they're too stupid to realize they can't breathe...

False.

Toastpaint...

Man, you're just shuttin' me down left and right in this thread, aintcha? :mrgreen:

But yeah, varnish the crispy bread.

ed 'lim' smilde · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:11 am

Marshmallow Roast wrote:

But either way, there's no way a tiny, dividing ball of cells (which is what a fertilized egg is, long before it becomes a human) has a personality. Killing it is fine. Eating it is... odd, since it's probably too small even to see.

Well, it's kind of tough to define what a personality is and when it first has it. Strictly scientifically, it is a human as soon as it is fertilized, but your question seems to be when killing a human is okay and when not.

Biscuithead · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 am

Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote:

Genetic engineering can and probably will do amazing things, that is, if the bible belt pushers and the pansies up in Washington get over the fact that a dead fetus is just a fetus and that using it for science is better than wasting a perfectly good dead baby by way of the furnace.

I take it you're referring to me by "bible pushers" since as far as I can tell, I'm the only one coming from a Christian perspective in this thread.
But you should know I'm pretty liberal by most Christian standards.

And actually I'm with you... to a certain extent:
Yeah, it's ok to experement on a dead foetus, that is, if the foetus was already dead to start with. Just like how experementing on dead adults is ok, but experementing on live humans... Well, that's what Hitler did with the Jews and most people didn't like that too much.

But seriously, there are so many genetic engineering benefits we can get from animals. We should be focussing on that. I have no problem with altering animals' genes, in fact, they generally don't even have to kill animals to do it since they actually mutate the genes instead of killing the ones with bad genes.

This method could be used for producing humans with no deformities or genetic problems in theory. This would be great, except for the fact that it can't be done yet.
So scientists make up for it by simply killing the people who aren't good enough. Yep, it's a lot like Hitler's ideas again.

So in conclusion: genetic engineering on animals = good.
Genetic engineering on humans = good (unless you count the whole "playing God blah blah blah").
Killing foetuses = bad, and it's not even real genetic engineering, just the easy way out.

HHFOV · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:52 am

I think you forgot that "killing" a fetus, since it's a lump of cells utterly devoid of a nervous system or any ability to have feelings, is about morally equivalent to killing a germ when you wash your hands.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:18 am

HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:

I think you forgot that "killing" a fetus, since it's a lump of cells utterly devoid of a nervous system or any ability to have feelings, is about morally equivalent to killing a germ when you wash your hands.

I'm sure the catholic church would like to have a word with you.

HHFOV · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:30 am

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic church has no more inherent merit associated with anything it says than anyone else. What is popular is not always right.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:39 am

HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic church has no more inherent merit associated with anything it says than anyone else. What is popular is not always right.

So would most other churches...

What's popular is not always right, but what's popular is not always wrong.

A germ will not turn into a person. A fetus can/will.

Also, you seem to have fetus and embryo mixed up.
An embryo has no discernable form.
A fetus (at least basically) resembles the adult.

HHFOV · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:39 pm

Yeah, but it's not like abortions aren't going to happen in back alleys even if you outlaw them. Making them legal just makes it easier to regulate.

Anyway, toastpaint, since we're supposed to be talking about genetic engineering anyway.

TheFacelessEvil · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:49 pm

HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:

Yeah, but it's not like abortions aren't going to happen in back alleys even if you outlaw them. Making them legal just makes it easier to regulate.

In my opinion, and my experience, making something legal just because it's safer for the person/people are going to do it anyway doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, nor does it mean that it would make regulation any easier.

StrongRad · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:56 pm

HipHoppityFrogOfValue wrote:

Yeah, but it's not like abortions aren't going to happen in back alleys even if you outlaw them. Making them legal just makes it easier to regulate.

You know, I see that argument all the time, but I don't buy it. Sure, there might be some, and there might be more dumpster babies, but with the "make it legal and it'll be easy to regulate" logic, we should also make prostitution, cocaine, and meth production legal.

Quote:

Anyway, toastpaint, since we're supposed to be talking about genetic engineering anyway.

Yep.

Genetic engineering on humans just scares me. As long as it's something like removing cancer, I'm all for it. When it gets into removing those with disabilities or disfigurements for "the greater good", then I start getting nervous.

Jitka · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:21 pm

StrongRad wrote:

Genetic engineering on humans just scares me. As long as it's something like removing cancer, I'm all for it. When it gets into removing those with disabilities or disfigurements for "the greater good", then I start getting nervous.

You wouldn't be removing the people themselves, just their genetic problems. If you found out your kid was going to have Down's syndrome or whatever, and were told it could easily be cured, wouldn't you do it?

TheFacelessEvil · **Posted:** Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:24 pm

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

You wouldn't be removing the people themselves, just their genetic problems. If you found out your kid was going to have Down's syndrome or whatever, and were told it could easily be cured, wouldn't you do it?

Personally, I wouldn't. It's just my personal belief that messing with that sort of stuff is kinda like 'cheating'. Despite 'normal society's' standards, I truly don't believe there's anything wrong with kids with Down's Syndrome. It's just a different state of being that we're slowly becoming more adapted to. Anyway, if I had enough money to get genetic engineering, I think it'd be better spent learning about my disabled child. That's just me, though.

However, if it was a painful disease, like some sort of flesh eating thing that would make them miserable for whatever short-span of life they have... then we could talk.

Edit: Also, if my child was clearly miserable in his state of being then I'd go out of my way to do anything for them, include bend my own morals.

casimir III · **Joined:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:10 pm **Posts:** 49

My vision is augmented.

Parlod · **Posted:** Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:07 am

TheFacelessEvil wrote:

JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:

You wouldn't be removing the people themselves, just their genetic problems. If you found out your kid was going to have Down's syndrome or whatever, and were told it could easily be cured, wouldn't you do it?

Personally, I wouldn't. It's just my personal belief that messing with that sort of stuff is kinda like 'cheating'. Despite 'normal society's' standards, I truly don't believe there's anything wrong with kids with Down's Syndrome. It's just a different state of being that we're slowly becoming more adapted to. Anyway, if I had enough money to get genetic engineering, I think it'd be better spent learning about my disabled child. That's just me, though.

However, if it was a painful disease, like some sort of flesh eating thing that would make them miserable for whatever short-span of life they have... then we could talk.

Edit: Also, if my child was clearly miserable in his state of being then I'd go out of my way to do anything for them, include bend my own morals.

Well said. You knew how to word my opinion, when I did not.

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