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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:47 am 
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Parlod wrote:
Word Up wrote:
but it's keeping them from a life of misery, and the babies that were killed are being burned instead of put to use.

So go shoot the next person you see with cancer. Put him out of his misery.

It depends:
1) Is this person a four year old in incredible amounts of pain?
2) Is he being abused?
3) Is he starving?

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:48 am 
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Word Up wrote:
1) Is this person a four year old in incredible amounts of pain?
2) Is he being abused?
3) Is he starving?


How about the more important question: Does this person WANT to live?

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:56 am 
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Obviously, if a person wanted to live, we would have no right to kill them. The question isn't about putting someone out of their misery, it's preventing potential FUTURE misery.

I just can't understand the logic behind NOT fixing a curable ailment before it becomes a problem. If you KNOW your kid will have Down's syndrome, or leukemia or whatever, why would you NOT want to fix it? Because it's cheating? But it doesn't HARM anyone. Who benefits from letting a kid be born with a disease that could have been avoided? Certainly not the kid.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:59 am 
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JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
Obviously, if a person wanted to live, we would have no right to kill them. The question isn't about putting someone out of their misery, it's preventing potential FUTURE misery.

I just can't understand the logic behind NOT fixing a curable ailment before it becomes a problem. If you KNOW your kid will have Down's syndrome, or leukemia or whatever, why would you NOT want to fix it? Because it's cheating? But it doesn't HARM anyone. Who benefits from letting a kid be born with a disease that could have been avoided? Certainly not the kid.


I think you're balling up Down's with degenerative diseases, and that's not the case. You can live a long life with Down's without pain - You can't with leukemia. My 'cheating' comment was based on changing a child based on difficulty of raising them.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:02 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
Obviously, if a person wanted to live, we would have no right to kill them. The question isn't about putting someone out of their misery, it's preventing potential FUTURE misery.

I just can't understand the logic behind NOT fixing a curable ailment before it becomes a problem. If you KNOW your kid will have Down's syndrome, or leukemia or whatever, why would you NOT want to fix it? Because it's cheating? But it doesn't HARM anyone. Who benefits from letting a kid be born with a disease that could have been avoided? Certainly not the kid.


I think you're balling up Down's with degenerative diseases, and that's not the case. You can live a long life with Down's without pain - You can't with leukemia. My 'cheating' comment was based on changing a child based on difficulty of raising them.


OK, granted. But wouldn't curing Down's lead to an improved life for the kid anyway? If it were my kid, I'd rather he not have anything wrong with him, personally. It's not based on how difficult it would be to raise him, it's based on what kind of chances in life I want him to have. I'd like to leave as many doors open as possible for my kids, and let's face it, with Down's syndrome there wouldn't be too much stuff he'd be able to do.

Not being heartless here, just practical.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:23 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Word Up wrote:
1) Is this person a four year old in incredible amounts of pain?
2) Is he being abused?
3) Is he starving?


How about the more important question: Does this person WANT to live?

I thought that went without saying.
Let me compromise for you all here:
I do not ever in any situation believe that late-term abortion should be allowed. The fetus is as good as alive, don't hurt it and kill it that late.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:24 am 
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Who decides what is "wrong" with somebody?

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:59 am 
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Those who diagnose? Doctors? Medical professionals?

I dunno, just a few guesses...

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:01 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Who decides what is "wrong" with somebody?

You've got to remember, the medical system isn't based on what people want, but what is in their best interest.
Ever see the PSP episode of South Park where Kenny was kept on life support? Thats pretty much the way things are.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:36 am 
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Word Up wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Who decides what is "wrong" with somebody?

You've got to remember, the medical system isn't based on what people want, but what is in their best interest.
Ever see the PSP episode of South Park where Kenny was kept on life support? Thats pretty much the way things are.

Uhh... That was about keeping personal matters between those involved and not in the hands of the Media, not whats Wrong or Right.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:15 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Who decides what is "wrong" with somebody?


Seconded.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:43 am 
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I do. My opinion is the only one that matters. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:25 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
I do. My opinion is the only one that matters. :mrgreen:

Wrong. Kef, you're just a green-name.
We red-names have all the power, even if we get it by just randomly pushing buttons.

Also, I'm in with everyone else that's said "who gets to decide what's wrong with someone?". The idea of "what's best for them" is also vague and therefore scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:52 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
Also, I'm in with everyone else that's said "who gets to decide what's wrong with someone?". The idea of "what's best for them" is also vague and therefore scary.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

The last thing humanity needs is the belief that we need to breed the perfect beings.

Hitler, anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:28 pm 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
The last thing humanity needs is the belief that we need to breed the perfect beings.

Hitler, anyone?


The problem with Hitler, though, wasn't that he wanted a race of perfect beings (although of course his idea of a perfect being was rather messed up); it was the way he went about it. Hitler advocated the extermination of other races; I don't think anybody here is advocating that.

- Kef

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:43 pm 
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furrykef wrote:
The problem with Hitler, though, wasn't that he wanted a race of perfect beings (although of course his idea of a perfect being was rather messed up); it was the way he went about it. Hitler advocated the extermination of other races; I don't think anybody here is advocating that.


While I'm aware that nobody here is advocating that extreme, that's where these 'perfectionist' streaks tend to lead. If all the lines are crossed/blurred with a lack of personal morals, then you have situations like those.

Hitler wanted the perfect race, that was his goal, and his lines were so blurred that he thought that being Jewish was a 'flaw' that had to be eliminated (as well as other things, such as homosexuality...). It was a 'disease'. In his mind, he was just eraticating a virus.

Where is the obvious disease(such as cancer, etc...), but where is the non-obvious(such as persons with down's syndrome). What lengths will we go to in order to get everybody to march to the same drum? Hm hm...

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:46 pm 
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It's not about getting everyone to "march to the same drum," it's about getting rid of needless problems. Cancer, Down's syndrome, Alzheimer's, whatever, if they can be cured with a little bit of genetic tampering, I do NOT understand what makes that morally wrong.

Like it or not, those things are problems, and if you have one there's something wrong with you. I didn't decide that, medical science did.

If a problem can be solved, I think we are morally obligated to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:50 pm 
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JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
It's not about getting everyone to "march to the same drum," it's about getting rid of needless problems. Cancer, Down's syndrome, Alzheimer's, whatever, if they can be cured with a little bit of genetic tampering, I do NOT understand what makes that morally wrong.

Like it or not, those things are problems, and if you have one there's something wrong with you. I didn't decide that, medical science did.

If a problem can be solved, I think we are morally obligated to do it.


I still don't understand why you're throwing Down's in with groupings such as Cancer. I think that might be my main beef with your argument, or the argument of medical science. Whoever decides those imperfections, vs. actual diseases.

I don't believe that. I believe we're morally obligated to accept the differences in others, and learn to adapt. To accept evolution rather then to fight it at every turn.

That's just me.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:49 pm 
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I throw Down's in with cancer because they are both illnesses that can potentially be fixed before birth. Why should we show preferential treatment for cancer but not Down's?

Cancer will kill you, which is obviously worse, but Down's syndrome is nearly as debilitating. Once again, why would we not want to correct a problem like that? I can't accept that Down's syndrome, or cancer or even a gene that causes obesity, could be considered an important part of evolution.

If a condition has negative effects OF ANY KIND, fatal or not, and it can be solved, there isn't any reason not to.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:11 pm 
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JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
I throw Down's in with cancer because they are both illnesses that can potentially be fixed before birth. Why should we show preferential treatment for cancer but not Down's?

Cancer will kill you, which is obviously worse, but Down's syndrome is nearly as debilitating. Once again, why would we not want to correct a problem like that? I can't accept that Down's syndrome, or cancer or even a gene that causes obesity, could be considered an important part of evolution.

If a condition has negative effects OF ANY KIND, fatal or not, and it can be solved, there isn't any reason not to.


What about the people with Down's who can function normally in society? Some of them are amazing actors/actresses! Why do we need to alter them? Why would we need to alter those who can play amazing music? Those who have amazing brain function capacity in BOTH sides of the brain? Down's is one of those fascinating steps of evolution that we see more of nowadays, and I find it worthy to study/understand rather then to shun.

Cancer'll just kill you. Worthy of curing. No doubt to be replaced by some new and evolved form disease to effect the human body. The cure kills us just as much. Such is the curse of genetic engineering.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Does every Down's patient have amazing musical, artistic, or acting skill? Aren't we just as likely to just have those skills without Down's syndrome? What I mean is, are we sure that it's the disease that causes those skills, or might they just have those talents anyway.

What about the thousands of Down's patients who don't have any special talents that make them "fascinating?" Should we just forget them? Let thousands of people live substandard lives for the sake of thirty or forty who can act well?


And as for cancer, how will curing cancer kill us just as much as cancer, barring some unforeseen "everyone who was genetically engineered starts to degenerate horribly in their mid-20s" thing? There's no way to know that now, but with the information that we DO have - that we could potentially cure illnesses and fix mental disorders, with no known negative effects - I don't see a reason not to do what we can.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:28 pm 
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JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
Does every Down's patient have amazing musical, artistic, or acting skill? Aren't we just as likely to just have those skills without Down's syndrome? What I mean is, are we sure that it's the disease that causes those skills, or might they just have those talents anyway.

What about the thousands of Down's patients who don't have any special talents that make them "fascinating?" Should we just forget them? Let thousands of people live substandard lives for the sake of thirty or forty who can act well?


And as for cancer, how will curing cancer kill us just as much as cancer, barring some unforeseen "everyone who was genetically engineered starts to degenerate horribly in their mid-20s" thing? There's no way to know that now, but with the information that we DO have - that we could potentially cure illnesses and fix mental disorders, with no known negative effects - I don't see a reason not to do what we can.


In my opinion, the cure is just as bad as the disease. Even though I'm in support of 'doing what we can', at the same time I really do not support the ideal of altering a human until it comes out 'perfect'. I can see too many consequences of that sort of tampering.

I understand you're seeing it as the 'now', and that's a respectable point, but you won't be able to convince me of supporting it. Just as much as I don't support microchipping everybody, or using deadly force at our borders (USA), or letting the government take over health care, or etc...

I understand, I see the point, but I won't support. If some people want to genetically alter, go for it, but keep my tax dollars out of it. I won't be writing them checks anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:24 pm 
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I'm not looking for perfection, or a race of Hitler-style, Aryan six-foot-three supermen with blond hair and blue eyes. I just advocate the curing of needless diseases for the general betterment of mankind.

I guess I understand your point better now, but like you won't ever support genetic engineering, I won't support the continued existence of illnesses we could theoretically eradicate.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:05 am 
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I laugh at you stupid sods with your silly morals, trying to stand in the way of science. Why don't you try relying on medicine as it was before people started desecrating corpses in the name of medicine? I'm sure the leeches and skull-drilling will help you plenty.


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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:26 am 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
I laugh at you stupid sods with your silly morals, trying to stand in the way of science. Why don't you try relying on medicine as it was before people started desecrating corpses in the name of medicine? I'm sure the leeches and skull-drilling will help you plenty.


That's really uncalled for.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:26 am 
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TheFacelessEvil wrote:
Simon Zeno wrote:
I laugh at you stupid sods with your silly morals, trying to stand in the way of science. Why don't you try relying on medicine as it was before people started desecrating corpses in the name of medicine? I'm sure the leeches and skull-drilling will help you plenty.


That's really uncalled for.


Well yeah, this is the Internet, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:56 am 
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StrongRad wrote:
furrykef wrote:
I do. My opinion is the only one that matters. :mrgreen:

Also, I'm in with everyone else that's said "who gets to decide what's wrong with someone?". The idea of "what's best for them" is also vague and therefore scary.

I never said I agreed with it...

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:39 am 
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Einoo T. Spork wrote:
TheFacelessEvil wrote:
That's really uncalled for.


Well yeah, this is the Internet, after all.

That's beside the point. The R&P board is definitely not a place to be insulting other people, nor should any board on this forum be. Someone brought up recently that people used to call this place "a haven from the rest of the internet", so I don't see why we should go by the internet's standards now.

But I'm rambling. Keep it civil, Zeno, or don't respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:42 am 
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JohnTheTinyCowboy wrote:
Cancer, Down's syndrome, Alzheimer's, whatever, if they can be cured with a little bit of genetic tampering, I do NOT understand what makes that morally wrong.

Well, I don't think that's morally wrong either.

But let me tell you what is wrong: when "scientists" can't alter the genes that cause a disease, they eliminate them another way, by destroying the foetus with the genetic disease.

At the moment, it IS possible to change or "correct" faulty genes, but there are laws against genetically engineering humans.
So what this basically means is it's immoral to cure a child of Down's syndrome, while it's perfectly fine to kill them because they will have a bad life.

Well, that's politics for ya.

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 Post subject: Re: Genetic Engineering
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Simon Zeno wrote:
I laugh at you stupid sods with your silly morals, trying to stand in the way of science. Why don't you try relying on medicine as it was before people started desecrating corpses in the name of medicine? I'm sure the leeches and skull-drilling will help you plenty.


Ahem.

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