Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

A recent order from the Vatican prevents the release of parish records to the LDS Church.




As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I feel the need to comment on this issue.

"Posthumous baptisms by proxy" is called "baptisms for the dead" within the LDS faith. The definition given above is accurate, but I've run across a lot of confusion about the practice.

We believe everyone needs to be baptized to return to live with God. Jesus taught, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Many of God's children have been born and died without ever having the opportunity to hear about Jesus, let alone be baptized. In God's mercy, He gives everyone a chance to do both.

After death, those who have not heard about Jesus or been baptized will be taught the gospel and then given the choice as to whether they want to accept Him and baptism or not. Because after death we don't have bodies, those individuals who want to be baptized after they die cannot receive the ordinance themselves.

That's where baptism for the dead comes in. Members of the LDS church can be baptized in proxy for those who have already passed on. Those who accept this baptism receive all the blessings that come from that, and can return to live with God.

Thos who don't accept Christ or baptism are not required to do so. Freedom to choose is sacred.

Now, here's where I don't get what the Catholic church is doing.

Why bring it up now? Baptism for the dead has been going on for over 150 years. LDS church members have been using Catholic parish records for this practice for almost as long. Suddenly it is offensive to Catholics?

Where's the harm? The Catholic church obviously doesn't believe baptism for the dead has any efficacy. For them to have "grave reservations" about what we're doing makes no sense unless they think baptisms for the dead actually mean something in the afterlife.

This isn't about adding to our membership numbers. Official records of the LDS church never count dead individuals as part of the living membership.

If someone wanted to make my great-great-grandpa a Wiccan or Muslim by performing some kind of ritual, this wouldn't bother me in the least. In my opinion, such a ritual would make no difference in my great-great-grandfather's eternal salvation.

So I don't get it. And to a lot of LDS church members with Catholic ancestors, this is a major problem. They want to be the ones to help their family members have this opportunity to be baptized. And the Catholic church is preventing them from doing that.

Today is not a good day in Mormon/Catholic relations.

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I'm sorry, but I don't really see why they needed to do this. I mean, doesn't this put a huge dent in any genealogical efforts? Not just for Mormons in our Baptisms for the dead, but just for anyone who would like to find out who their great-great-great somebody is. What was the reason for doing this?

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Uh, Faceless, if you're going to quote me, how about you treat me with a little respect?



The practice of baptism for the dead in no way whatsoever affects the free will of anyone. Did you even read my post? I know it was long, but I don't think it's too much to ask for you to read the whole thing before responding.

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

To be fair, I think it was the "oh no he didn't" thing he was referring to as disrespect.

Um, I am Catholic, therefore I agree with the Catholics. Carry on.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Faceless, you fail to articulate exactly how this practice affects anyone in the hereafter.

Here's my point:



I'm looking for a response to this.

It seems you believe that Mormon baptism for the dead has power in the afterlife.

Do you?

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Follow this line of reasoning:

What gives baptism its power?

I believe baptism only has an effect on us if God says it does.

I also believe baptism is 100% about personal choice. God will force no one to be baptized or accept Christ or go to church.

Now, why would God give His authority to a baptism you didn't choose? If you die, and someone is baptized in proxy for you, why would God force you to accept that baptism and make you be a Mormon or Presbyterian or Methodist if you didn't want it?

That doesn't make sense.

In baptism for the dead, those who are dead have 100% say on whether they want to accept the baptism or not. It doesn't logically follow that it would work any other way.

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Okay Faceless, would you just listen to yourself? You are saying that those that have passed don't have a choice to do anything in heaven. Eh' what? So in your eyes, we die, and go to heaven where we sit around and do nothing?

Also, if you believe that baptisms for the dead do have an effect then why are you against it? The only way back to God is through baptism. So why would you have a problem with us helping them return to God?

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Ah, I didn't know you were an atheist. I would have used a completely different argument if I'd known.

In regards to "a violation of my choices to NOT be baptized..."

It's not like you'd be dug up. Someone else would be baptized and we'd say "this is for TheFacelessEvil."

Completely meaningless unless you think the Mormon church is true.

I dunno... I think this is one of those things that are offensive to some people and not offensive to others and it's hard to explain why.

And Mookoo... chill. He agreed with what I said about it being a choice.

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Doing nothing is pretty much paradise.

I don't care either argument although I'll agree if somebody baptizes me into the cult of the three-headed cow in the future (probably a bad comparison) I'd be mad.

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Also, TFE is a chick, just so you know.

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Well hey, you're 72 virgins in my eyes.

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

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I laughed.

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Stop spamming my thread, COLA and Rusty. If you don't have anything to contribute, I'd rather you keep out.



Why would this upset you? It would be meaningless.

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...doesn't that also make the mormon post-death baptism thing meaningless too?

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

If you don't believe the Mormon faith is true, then YES.

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If you already believed the Mormon faith, wouldn't you have already been baptized while you were alive?

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

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Meanwhile as The Faceless Evil closes in on the hapless, sleeping, populace...
Across town in a shanty one-bedroom, an old woman feeds her parakeet.

Did you read my initial post?

Baptism for the dead is for people who have never had the chance to be baptized into the Mormon faith.

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So we're not talking like 80 year olds who never got around to it, we're talking like stillborn infants?

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beep beep I'm a Jeep

Children who die before they are eight years old don't need it, according to our faith.

We're talking about people who never had the chance while they were alive. If there's an 80-year old who had the opportunity to get baptized and never wanted to, so never got around to it, odds are he won't accept it when he's dead, either.

But that's up to God.

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So who exactly would qualify for this, then? If I understand you, you're saying it'd be a person who has never had the chance to become a Mormon, but wants to become one, but for whatever reason can't do it, but makes it clear he WANTS to do it, but never gets the chance, so his family has him baptized after he dies?

That about it? Just trying to be clear here.

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beep beep I'm a Jeep