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The current state of the economy
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14580		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  The current state of the economy
Let's face it: skyrocketing oil prices, devaluing of the dollar, inflation, and countless other things are really screwing America over. The latest was the IndyMac failure, though me and my mom both agree that the bank did make crap decisions. But that doesn't mean it's the only bank.

So, are we at the verge of an economic meltdown, are we already in it, or a bunch of hooplah?

Me? I say there's definitely a chance of having to tighten our belts and focus more on basic needs and change those we can if they're too much for us.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
I think a major problem here is that the economy about 10th on the Democrats' list of priorities. They care a lot more about global warming, affirmative action, getting out of Iraq, saving the polar bears, universal healthcare, etc. etc.

Note this chart:

Image

It might be too simplistic to blame a Democratically-controlled Congress on our economic woes, but considering Chuck Schumer is the one who brought Indymac down, maybe it's not.

Quote:
The collapse of Indymac bank, the second largest bank failure in American history, began with a letter from the office of Senator Charles Schumer on June 27. He questioned the viability of the bank. When a senior senator who is in a number of influential posts regarding oversight of bank regulators directly attacks the confidence of a depository institution, it matters. Not surprisingly, the director of the Office of Thrift Supervision concluded that the collapse of the bank immediately following the Senator’s comments was not a coincidence. Director Reich concluded that Senator Schumer had ‘given the bank a heart attack’.

Why? Why would a federal official with enormous power, destroy an institution on which tens of thousands of depositors (not all of whom are insured) and employees depend? Why would a New York Senator attack a Pasadena bank, acting as some sort of amateur, self-appointed, long-distance bank examiner?


Again, Democrats profess to care about unemployment and high gas prices, but they care a lot more about global warming and taking President Bush down.

And if Obama is elected, I expect it will only get worse. And it's not because I think Senator Obama is an evil guy... it's just that his well-intentioned priorities do not include a healthy U.S. economy, and in fact, many of his goals are in direct opposition to one existing.
Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
Note this chart:

I would, but there's not much to note.

Picture this:

Republicans work with oil companies to get lower gas prices to make themselves look good -> Republicans lose majority -> Republicans work with oil companies to raise prices and make the Democrats look bad -> Republicans take back majority.

In conclusion: It's a trap.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Yeah, either scenario is equally plausible unless there are things congress actually did that we can point to. As it stands, it's more likely a coincidence that this is the time when demand around the world has started to strain the supply of gasoline. Possible corroboration of that can be found in how much quicker diesel has shot up, that being a more widely used form of gas around the world.

Schumer's comments may have been reckless. Politicians need to be careful shaking public confidence when the system is almost completely built on confidence and nothing else. That creates a big problem tho, which is: what do you do when something is actually wrong? What if IndyMac really was doing predatory lending and discriminating against minorities? Certainly something should be done about that... This is starting to get me thinking about how it's all pretty dangerous that the economy isn't actually based on something tangible and is instead based on a collective trust in the stability of corporate and government institutions. If we can't call the government and corporations to task because it's our trust in them that's holding the economy up, then they're escaping a lot of accountability there.

Really, tho, our entire lifestyle in the US has been unsustainable for decades now. If we have economic collapse, we brought it on ourselves. It doesn't matter whether a more social-democrat or free market ideology would've been in control in the recent past, we'd still be in this same mess if we lived the same lives of excess and short-term thinking.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Quote:
Republicans work with oil companies to get lower gas prices to make themselves look good -> Republicans lose majority -> Republicans work with oil companies to raise prices and make the Democrats look bad -> Republicans take back majority.


lulz blood 4 oil

Quote:
Yeah, either scenario is equally plausible unless there are things congress actually did that we can point to.


Preventing us from building any domestic oil refineries. Preventing us from drilling domestically. Preventing us from building nuclear power plants. Preventing us from building wind turbines.

Do those count? Congress has spent the past forty years ignoring the fact that we're entirely dependent on a finite natural resource that we don't control. Yes, Republicans share a lot of the blame, but Democrats have been sitting around hoping we can invent the perpetual motion machine or something, because they obstruct every other viable energy source that exists.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Republicans work with oil companies to get lower gas prices to make themselves look good -> Republicans lose majority -> Republicans work with oil companies to raise prices and make the Democrats look bad -> Republicans take back majority.


From what I've heard, we have a lot of oil right here in the United States, and Republicans are trying to get us to drill for it, but Democrats have been preventing it because, in my opinion (and like lahi said earlier), they're priorities are out of order.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
I've been looking into making a Superconductor-powered car.

This is possibly the most plausible Idea I have ever had.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
COLA wrote:
I've been looking into making a Superconductor-powered car.

This is possibly the most plausible Idea I have ever had.
And this is relevant to this conversation how?

As a now former member of the Democratic party, I can say that this was going to happen regardless of who is in charge of Congress or in the White House. It's part of the natural cycle in economics. This slide is just something we are going to have to let happen. Let it hit bottom and then bring it back. It probably won't happen until midway through the next president's term.
Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Beyond the Grave wrote:
COLA wrote:
I've been looking into making a Superconductor-powered car.

This is possibly the most plausible Idea I have ever had.
And this is relevant to this conversation how?

Gas prices.
lahimatoa wrote:
lulz blood 4 oil

Huh?
Author:  lahimatoa [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Quote:
Huh?


Stupid conspiracy theory met by a stupid conspiracy theory.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Beyond the Grave wrote:
COLA wrote:
I've been looking into making a Superconductor-powered car.

This is possibly the most plausible Idea I have ever had.
And this is relevant to this conversation how?

To expand on what Sparkle said, a Superconductor is a compound of two elements with a near-infinite electrical charge, and zero resistance if kept at the lowest possible temperature for both metals. In essence, a superconductor could power a car or a house, and all you'd have to do is buy Liquid Nitrogen.

It may just be the ultimate power source.
Author:  Inverse Tiger [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
Preventing us from building any domestic oil refineries. Preventing us from drilling domestically. Preventing us from building nuclear power plants. Preventing us from building wind turbines.

Do those count?

Nah, cuz like you went on to say, that's been happening under the previously Republican congress and we were talking about that there graph thing. I agree, tho, that if we're not gonna get serious about throwing money behind some new fuel technologies and getting them out there, we should at least stop this NIMBY crap and build some more refineries, nuke plants, etc. I'd much rather the former, but the latter is better than nothing.
Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
Stupid conspiracy theory met by a stupid conspiracy theory.
I wasn't saying that's what I believed, just that saying gas prices rose higher after the Democrats became the majority in congress isn't the only conclusion that graph could lead to. And both conclusions are plausible. What I said is even more plausible because my explanation doesn't have gas prices rising magically because Nancy Pelosi is is the Speaker of the House.
Author:  Capt. Ido Nos [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
I think there's a lot of hoopla and hand-waving to avoid the real problems.

I wonder what would happen if they just slashed prices...
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Capt. Ido Nos wrote:
I think there's a lot of hoopla and hand-waving to avoid the real problems.

I wonder what would happen if they just slashed prices...


Vera low prices?
Image

To make this post relevant, the stock market went down pretty good yesterday, but thankfully not as bad as other times. Seems to be holding steady today, though. But, there ARE still two hours left.
Author:  Pop_tire1 [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
The main reason I'm against Mr. Gingrich's plan of digging for oil here is that it's all about destroying the few natural beauties we have left in this country to perpetuate our addiction to oil a little longer. We're not going to fix the problem by just finding more oil, we need to fix our attitude to it. Nuclear power, wind power, something, but we can't keep using up oil.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Pop_tire1 wrote:
destroying the few natural beauties we have left in this country to perpetuate our addiction to oil a little longer.
The few left? This country is loaded with natural beauties. It's amazing how much of everything this small piece of land has compared to other countries.
Quote:
We're not going to fix the problem by just finding more oil, we need to fix our attitude to it. Nuclear power, wind power, something, but we can't keep using up oil.
Sure, but we're only hurting ourselves by not. People are working very hard on alternative energies, and I am confident that we'll be far less reliant on oil long before it "runs out." If you think paying higher gas prices is going to somehow help the situation, why not just raise taxes on it instead? Why not let the government keep the extra money, rather than pay it off to other countries because we refuse to drill enough of our own oil?
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
What I said is even more plausible because my explanation doesn't have gas prices rising magically because Nancy Pelosi is is the Speaker of the House.
Lahi's explanation didn't have that either. As of now, his seems more plausible because he's cited examples to back it up.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Anheuser Busch was bought out yesterday by a foreign company, which forced my dad to sell his stock.

They may drop him as an advertising space, but we don't know yet.
Author:  Susan [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
One of the problems in the states is that the banks aren't stable, haven't been for quite a time. American banks need to look at how Canadian banks set up there stability and do the same.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
I said this in the Elections thread, but here's my plan to solve the energy problem:

1. Build tons of nuke plants.
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.
3. Drill domestically in the meantime, so we don't crash too badly while waiting.

Ding!
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.

You'd have to take out a second and third mortgage on your house to be able to afford that.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
1. Build tons of nuke plants.
Yes, let's build lot's of targets for terrorists.

lahimatoa wrote:
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.
I can wait for hydrogen to come in.
Author:  ChickenLeg [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Beyond the Grave wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
1. Build tons of nuke plants.
Yes, let's build lot's of targets for terrorists.


Fusion power, anyone?
Author:  Mr. Sparkle [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.

GM made an electric car already. They were mass produced and sold to people, even.

Beyond the Grave wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
1. Build tons of nuke plants.
Yes, let's build lot's of targets for terrorists.

Don't make me laugh. With reactor cores being virtually impenetrable the only real target would be the fuel rods that are stored deep underwater and can be easily guarded.
Author:  Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
Don't make me laugh. With reactor cores being virtually impenetrable the only real target would be the fuel rods that are stored deep underwater and can be easily guarded.

"Spy sappin' My fuel rods!"

lahimatoa wrote:
1. Build tons of nuke plants.

Again, Superconductors. They can power everything, and only require Liquid Nitrogen to keep them working.
Author:  ed 'lim' smilde [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Beyond the Grave wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
1. Build tons of nuke plants.
Yes, let's build lot's of targets for terrorists.
Wouldn't they have enough targets already?

Beyond the Grave wrote:
lahimatoa wrote:
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.
I can wait for hydrogen to come in.
lol you two will never agree on anything :D
Author:  lahimatoa [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
2. Drive the electric car when it arrives around 2010.

COLA wrote:
You'd have to take out a second and third mortgage on your house to be able to afford that.


The first prototypes are over $100,000, yes. But the price will come down. And I'd be fine with the government giving cash grants or whatever to people who drive one in the meantime.

BTG wrote:
I can wait for hydrogen to come in.


I don't know what you mean by that.

Quote:
Again, Superconductors. They can power everything, and only require Liquid Nitrogen to keep them working.


Fair enough. I've only read a bit about them, but if they can work, let's use them.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
BTG wrote:
I can wait for hydrogen to come in.


I don't know what you mean by that.
I can wait for Hydrogen fuel to come in. BMW has been working on it and they have proven that the performance is very good. Hydrogen is unlimited. As long as there is water on this planet, we will have fuel for hydrogen cars. Plus it's only emission is water and it has twice range of an electric car.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
Beyond the Grave wrote:
I can wait for Hydrogen fuel to come in. BMW has been working on it and they have proven that the performance is very good. Hydrogen is unlimited. As long as there is water on this planet, we will have fuel for hydrogen cars. Plus it's only emission is water.


I'm a bit concerned about using hydrogen because we need water to live. :) Aren't there drought conditions in some parts of California right now? I can't imagine pumping hundreds of millions of gallons of water into our cars, removing that from our drinking water supply.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The current state of the economy
lahimatoa wrote:
I'm a bit concerned about using hydrogen because we need water to live. :) Aren't there drought conditions in some parts of California right now? I can't imagine pumping hundreds of millions of gallons of water into our cars, removing that from our drinking water supply.
Yeah, but it turns it right back into water. Water Vapor to be precise. Which is the main ingredient in rain. So we would take it away, but give it right back.
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