Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/232004c.asp

Hmm, most kids, even Christians, aren't growing up with a biblical world view? That's a good thing damnit! A biblical world view makes you ignorant and dangerous...

Here are some sample questions to that test they're talking about. If you feel safe giving your e-mail and home mailing address to these people, y'all should take it! You have to wait a lil while, they seem to mail you the results...
http://www.christian-internet.com/creat ... s_test.htm

I, being the fearless psychopath I am, took the test and gave the nice scary Christians all my info. So with the answers I gave, I should be expecting a goon squad to break down my door and murder me and my family, just like it says they should in the bible!

Here is what I got in the mail. Very interesting. You can't really see it, but my overall score was -56.00...

http://www.imgmag.org/images/thephenom6 ... yxcopy.jpg

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It is true that there are many Christians children growing up without a biblical world view. I went to a Catholic high school, and there have been about three pregnancies (sp?) in my senior class alone. But what your saying about it being a good thing. Kids growing up need some sort of spiritual guidance when they are growing up. Without it we seem to be lost in the world and know not what to do. Now i'm not trying to preach Christianity (I've peeved the priest at my school a few times), but rather some sort of guidance. Wether it's Hinduism, or Judiasm, Islam or Christianity, as long as we have a base to stand apon. But that's just me. Two different people think two radically different ways.

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You seem to misunderstood what this is. These are a bunch of Christian radicals complaining that people, especially kids, are "not Christian enough". These are people who hold the bible to be literal interpretation of the world, and should be followed accordingly...

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It seems then to what on what your saying is that the children are not "Living up to the elders expectations" (Lack of a better phrase). The people that say that are prob the extremeist like James Baker and Pat Robertson. Those are the type of people that claim that unless you follow everything the Bible say literally, you're going to hell. The Bible says many things though that don't make sense, like that you can't grow two or more types of plants in the same field. The extreme Bible Beaters (as the way that they always pound on the bible when they are talking) are few, but gaining some ground. I can see what your saying Zaius. But to be honest, there are many kids that don't live the christian life style as the should. What you need to say to the people that say that is that the Bible is not to be read literally, but figuratively. Not everyone can be perfect, that's the way we were made. If we were to all be living exactly like what the extremeist say, then the world would be a much more boring place.

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And so began the 04-05 religious christianity debate. Soon it became an all out war and the two went mad, gethering their armies and destroying wikianity! I'm sorry, but I'ma go with Dr. Zaius with this one. Although you both prove good points.

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The Incoherology Trilogy

Check out my tale, and I promise to start posting again.

But when these people start attacking the teachings of John Dewey, saying that experimentalism and pragmatism are somehow bad things, you can't help but throw your hands up in disgust...

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Oh, I'm not saying that's right either. The religious right do try to supress ideas different from theirs, and that's not right. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I'm saying that the morals of the younger generation has declined steadily since the 80's.

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Morals are relative though. As long as we don't have anarchy, I don't think a more open acceptance of sex and whatnot will destroy society...

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Morals by their very nature cannot be relative. The moment one begins to live in and interact with society, there must be common ground. For example: you believe that elderly adults should be put to death. I do not. So, if you were to show up at LSS with an Uzi, I'd be morally obligated to stop you.

As I pointed out in another thread, the Bible never commands Christians to murder anybody, so that remark about people breaking down your door is unwarranted.

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Morals are relative though. We all accept certain practices like "don't kill" or "don't steal" because they are laws of the state, and are taught to us since we were still in diapers. But things like sex, entertainment, ect are up to the individual...

On your claim that the bible never commands you to murder anybody, check out Deuteronomy 21:18-21:21. There are more, but I don't care to go look for them...

And for the last time, I DON'T belive the elderly should be put to death, you Bad word...

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Murder? According to the passage, this was an act of civil justice. You have a kid who is basically a criminal, and his parents are responsible to make sure he does not become a danger to society. So they present him to the elders (i.e., city officials) to determine whether capital punishment is warranted.

Two things to remember about this passage:
(1) this is a matter of a child involved in criminal behavior.
(2) capital punishment is not murder. There is due process of law which includes a fair trial.
(3) this is a last resort, when other forms of discipline do not work.

Now does any parent want to see their kid put to death? Absolutely not, at least, not a sane parent. But the principle involved here is that parents are responsible for their children's behavior, and if they cannot control their children, then at least they have some recourse to protect themselves as well as their community.

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Still seems kind of sick and twisted to me, your "justification" is cold and remorseless... kind of proves my point...

Try these out for size!

Leviticus 26: 7-8
1 Kings 18: 40
Leviticus 18:13
Leviticus 20:10
Deuteronomy 13:8-11 & 13:15

I think that's enough. Want me to go on? I have a bible right here

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I think this is a good thing (now, who didn't expect me to say that?). What the article is essentially saying is "These children are growing up without having a religious outlook thrust upon them, meaning they become freethinking individuals! It's terrible, and it's all the fault of those disgusting non-believers!" Suffice to say, I'm not impressed with the people at Agape Press.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

I didn't want to give them my physical address, but I got an opinion from the type and slant of the questions that they are using a very distinct definition of Christianity that not all sects agree on. Questions asking about who should hold property and money are not the core of Christianity, and our opinions on those matters aren't what God uses to determine if we are a good Christian.

If I were to make an "Are you a good Christian" quiz, the questions would be more like "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, try to repent of your sins, and obey his commandments to the best of your ability as you understand them?"



I will gladly consider your opinion on what is "cold and remorseless" as you are in favor of killing the mentally deficient. I also note that you are confused about the differences and relationship between the Law of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I see that you also don't understand the difference between capital punishment and murder.

Hey while we're at it, why don't you bring up the entire book of Joshua? Think of all the Philistines they killed to take over the land God had given them. Even when certain Philistines wanted to surrender, God commanded that the Israelites kill all of them, men, wives, children, sheep, cows, everything. Why was it ok? Because God commanded it. And why would he command it? Because it was better for these people, whose wickedness had become "ripe," to be destroyed than continue living in such sin and wickedness. Also, it was better that all these people should die, and their innocent go to heaven, than for their wicked traditions and religions to infect and poison the Israelites.

The same thing could probably be said for the son in that first example you gave. Parents would only use that method as a last recourse for their children, but the reason why the recourse was there is because it is better for one person to die than for an entire nation to dwindle in wickedness and unbelief. The Israelites of that time had a difficult enough time following the prophets, without the influences of false prophets and wicked men. Because of that, in that theocratic society, capital punishment was prescribed to keep the populace motivated to keep the commandments and follow God.

And on last request Dr. Zaius, can we cut out the vulgar language? It would be appreciated.

I'm already sick of your intolerance for different views, Dr. Zaius. If you don't want to be Christian because you're bitter over some crap, fine, but don't encourage others, especially children, to change their opinions just because you're a big whiny Anti-Christian baby. Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance!!

I have a biblical world view, and I am neither ignorant nor dangerous. You, on the other hand, are becoming a bitter, prejudiced bigot with nothing better to do than criticize the beliefs of others becuase you take it personally that they believe in God. I've already had enough of your anti-Christian conspiracy theories! Your views on Christianity are misguided!! You just hate them because they're a majority, they have different opinions than you, and they try to be good people and "get in your way" with their beliefs.

And, incidentally, you are not qualified to make arguments using the Bible to back it up, since you take it out of context, disregard the New Testament, and don't know anything about it anyway, clearly.

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I am the Chupacabra. I like to suck on goats.




... their blood.

Good, looks like I'm making an impact. Nothing better I like than to annoy Christians!



Now that I am actually apologizing for. You see, I copy/pasted this from another forum I posted this at, and I didn't realize I swore (although the standards of "vulgarity" here is laughable)

Capital punishment is indeed different than murder, BUT NOT THE BIBLICAL STANDARDS! I don't think being "wicked" is a justifiable reason to be put to death...



I smell BS here. "You can't use the source you're arguing to back yourself up", right. And I wasn't disregarding the NT, I just haven't gotten to it yet

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First, I must commend you, Zaius. You're actually DEBATING now, not just ranting.

Leviticus 26: 7-8

7You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

This is a promise of victory in warfare. The Bible is not against war at all. War, in fact, is sometimes quite necessary for the sake of protection. War is not the same as murder.

1 Kings 18: 40

40And Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape." And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.

Here’s the rest of the story. In this time in Israel’s history, King Ahab and Queen Jezebel had instituted the false worship of Baal, which in itself was a violation of Israel’s covenant (and in the ancient world, the breaking of a solemn covenant warranted the death penalty). What’s more, Ahab and Jezebel also severely persecuted the followers of YHWH, having them executed (read 18:1-4). As you can imagine, Elijah was very high on their hit list. This episode was Elijah’s vindication and an execution of justice against those false priests. Of course, Ahab and Jezebel weren’t terribly happy about it.


Leviticus 18:13

13You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is your mother's relative.

Oookaaay! Basically, “Don’t sleep with your aunt”? I don’t get the connection here.

Leviticus 20:10

10"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

A matter of civil justice, not murder. Marriage and family heritage were taken very seriously back in those days. A marriage is a covenant, and adultery is a betrayal of that covenant, punishable by death. Other cultures of that time had similar laws, and frankly, I wouldn’t be at all bothered if our nation did more to punish this type of immorality. All we do is give the other spouse all the stuff in the divorce.

Deuteronomy 13

Just like I stated in that other thread, the people of Israel entered into a sacred covenant with God, a contract if you will. They fully agreed to the terms of that contract, of which the first stipulation was, “You shall have no other gods besides me.” God kept his half of the bargain. Israelites who worshipped false gods were breaking their end of the bargain. Breaking of a covenant warranted the death penalty in the ancient world, religious or not.

But why such a stiff penalty? Because God knew full well that the people would be tempted to forsake him to worship false gods. The penalty (which, according to the histories, was not always inforced as it should have been) was there to give them good motive for keeping up their end of the bargain. Idolotry was a constant danger to the Israelites, and eventually it led them into slavery in Babylon.

But, just like with other matters of capital punishment, this was not murder, but due process of Israelite law, in which the defendants were given ample opportunity to defend themselves. But this law only applied to people who lived under that original covenant (the Hebrew people), not to those who were not (Gentile Christians are not). So we are left with the question: does God have the right to expect loyalty from those who agreed to give it to him? And if they fail to do so, what constitutes a just penalty?


Tell that to any parent who's had a junkie child living under their roof. I know of one person (a secretary where I work) who is afraid of her own son. He's in Juvvy right now, but can you just imagine what she'll have to go through when he gets out?

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Seems like you're just picking and choosing what's "murder" and what's not...

And I must have wrote down the wrong passage for Leviticus 18:13... keep reading though, it says that incest is punishable by death...

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But then aren't you just doing the same thing?

It seems to me that, between the two of us, I'm the only one who understands the difference between capital punishment and murder. If a serial killer is given the chair, that's not murder.

And you have to keep in mind: the people of Israel agreed to live under this code of law. If they thought it was too severe, they could have refused. As it was, they had already broken the covenant before the written copy was even presented to them.

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Generally, though I'm not as qualified on this as qualified to argue on this as Didymus, the New Testament (specifically with Jesus) speaks far more of tolerance and goodwill to fellow men. Things like the golden rule, for example. (Generally, there are few who would WANT to be treated bad or violently.)

As I'm sure this has been pointed out, the Bible IS a collection of books, among them in the Old Testament being a recording of Israelite law.

But by viewing this thread and others Dr. Ziaus has started ... He seems more like a hateful little ball of prejudice who gets his kicks out of pushing his prejudice on Christians and offending them, and spamming ":P " when he's succeeded before going back to calling all Christians and Christianity evil and Jesus the enemy of mankind.

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Dude, if I committed incest, I'd WISH I was dead!

Zaius, I'm interested to know, since you've cited a lot of passages in the Bible that deal with captial punishment, am I to assume correctly that you are opposed to it? I used to be opposed to capital punishment; until about 2 years ago one of my classmates was murdered outside our theatre building. He was killed by people he knew, who basically took advantage of his kind nature, in order to use his car in a stupid bank robbery. That's when I decided Capital Punishment was indeed necessary. As it is, his killers are awaiting execution, and I for one hope it comes soon. I don't like to be vengeful, and anyone who knows me knows it isn't my nature, but my classmate was such a good person that it still burns me to think what those two people did to him.

But back on topic. I do have one question. If you do not believe in the Bible, why do you use it in arguments? If you are trying to show us our ignorance, it seems to me like you would use other sources. I don't know what beef you've got with Christianity, but I would honestly like to apologize on behalf of whoever made you so angry at Christians. I mean that.

And as for Jesus being your enemy, you don't have to believe He was the Son of God. (Not for me, anyway.) But Jesus did teach humanity some wonderful lessons, such as tolerance, kindness to others, and humility. Honestly, even if I wasn't Christian, I think I would look to Jesus at least as a positive role model.

As for children not knowing enough about Christianity, yes, that is a major flaw in our religion. I am not an expert by any means. I know you're going to gag at this, and that's ok, but I'm going to say it anyway; the only thing I am an expert on with my religion is my faith and the love I feel from God. I totally understand why you think that love from a being that you perceive as being non-existent is ludicrous. Honestly, there were times in my life when I doubted my upbringing and what I'd been taught. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but the one answer I do have, and that's the love of God for ALL of us, is all I feel that I need.

You may proceed to insult me all you want. It doesn't matter.

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I'm not opposed to capital punishment. However, capital punishment for anything other than murder I am against. I only advocate killing if they themselves killed someone, or in cases of mercy...

I cite the bible because what better way to argue against someone by using their own arguments against them?

I never said I hated Jesus. In fact, in one of the threads, I said I thought Jesus was a cool guy, except the stories about him have been greatly exaggerated. His teachings of love and forgiveness were revolutionary, especially in those times. But him being the son of god, walking on water, rising from the dead, and all those other things that would make people call you crazy for claiming to have done is just bullplop...

And this thread isn;t about children not knowing enough about Christianity, its about some extremists complaining that Children aren't being extremists!

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Not when that child is a danger to the community. You still haven't got that down yet, have you? The term "rebellious" is more than just a kid who won't eat his vegetables. The term in Hebrew implies VIOLENCE. This is a kid who carries a gun to school. "Drunkard" is more than a kid who sneaks a sip of daddy's beer. Hebrew culture had no problem with moderate drinking at all. A "drunkard" was someone who exhibited ADDICTIVE behavior. This is a junkie (well, alcoholic, but same difference).

As for that whole blasphemy thing: when the people worshipped false gods, they endangered themselves and their communities. This is their reality. They were foresaking the protection of YHWH in doing so. Just read the historical accounts (starting with Judges). When the people worshipped false gods, enemies invaded and enslaved them. For the Israelite people, it was imperative that they remain under the protection of Almighty God.


Here's the flaw in your argument here. Saddam's people were given no option to live under his rule. In fact, the ones he terrorized weren't even his people. The other flaw is this: Saddam was a tyrant, pure and simple. He was concerned only for his own welfare. God is no tyrant. Though his laws were strict (they had to be, for those times), he gained no benefit from it. The only ones who stood to benefit at all from this relationship were the Hebrew people (well, all nations, considering that he chose Abraham to be a blessing to all nations). These are the people he rescued from Egypt, provided food and water for when they were wandering in the desert, protected them against all manner of enemies, gave his own presence to them to be their guide, and provided them a homeland. And even though he would have been completely justified in destroying them several times over, he allowed them to continue in their rebellion for nearly a thousand years before sending them as exiles into Babylon. After which, he returned them from Babylon and restored the glory of their land. And through it all, he continued to show his people caring concern. There is a beautiful passage in Isaiah that describes Israel as an abandoned waif which God found and cared for. But then Israel betrayed him and broke his heart.

Now here's the issue: I have no doubt that God is entirely justified in expecting his chosen people to be completely loyal to him. But are the penalties just? There's a part of me that hates them, that feels that these law codes are entirely too strict and the penalties too stiff. But I have some thoughts on that subject which I will address at a different time.

I am glad that you at least acknowledge that you are not claiming any sort of moral superiority, and that you are only addressing what you believe to be problems with the ancient law code. But then again, unless you begin with some sort of moral standard, then you cannot really criticize. That's a logical inconsistency I tried to point out before. If you do not believe in the inherent value of human life, you cannot distinguish between murder, warfare, and capital punishment, because under that system all human life is purely functional and all life and death issues ultimately pragmatic. I would encourage you to think a little more about what you think human life to be in and of itself.

In another thread, you once asked me why I was trying so hard to justify God to you. I don't know the answer to this question. I really don't have to. God does not always justify himself to me, so why should I try to justify him to you? (keep in mind, I am surrounded by the tragedy of human weakness and death every day). I'll have to think more about this.

But here are a few more thoughts I'd like to add. Why such stiff penalties for rebellion and heresy? Well, I think it reflects the fact that rebellion and heresy naturally lead to death anyway. It was the rebellion of the first humans that first brought death and suffering into the world. And rebellion and heresy ultimately lead all rebels and heretics onto the path of destruction (Psalm 1). It might very well be that the civil law code was intended to fix this reality in the minds of the Israelite people, so that they always recognize the ultimate consequences of sin (Rom 3:23).

I also find it interesting that God himself was executed for what was essentially heresy and rebellion. He was condemned by his own people for blasphemy and then handed over to Pilate and condemned by him as a rebel. There is a very real sense that, even though he is God of the faithful and just, he is also God of rebels and heretics. As GK Chesterton once put it, "I never felt right about him being king unless he was a rebel king." So what does this mean? That God himself was a victim of the very law code which he gave, and a willing victim at that. What if...now bear with me just a moment...what if the whole point of those stiff penalties was so that, when it came time, people would actually have a reason for putting God to death, when otherwise he had committed no wrong? And I have no doubt that the God who died on that one mountain was the same God who gave the Torah on that other.

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Zaius, I'm not dissing on what you believe, so please don't dis what I believe. I have a question for you. Do you have any evidence that Jesus wasn't the son of God? He fufilled many of the saying of the prophets before him.

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Blah blah blah , Didymus. You've still haven't put any real justification for those ancient laws...

I do have a moral standard though. I feel that corporate crime should be as bad as rape in our legal system. I feel that the US imposing it's will on the world is nothing more than conquest. I just have a different set or morals. I value human life, just not as much as you do. If I didn't value human life, you think I'd give a care about America's imperialism? If I didn't value human life, you'd think I'd even be arguing this stuff with you?

Overall, you seem to belive that anyone who goes against god is some kind of monster. Rebellion and hesesay are NOT naturally followed by death. That's extremism. And not matter what you tell yourself, not everyone is an extremist. So most of those people who were slaughtered in biblical times for "crimes against god" were victims, not criminals...



Common sense. If I don't belive in god, how the heck can I belive someone is the SON of god?

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I can't agree with you more. The US is just one nation among many. We may be a leader among the nations, but that does not give us any right to impose our will on other nations.


At least none that you are willing to accept. But did you miss this part?

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Because I take responsibility for my own actions. Everything I do is for me and because of me. I don't try to justify or give reason for my actions by some deity. Likewise, God, real or not, is in no position to act the way he/she/it does without reason. If you can't give reason for god to do the things it does, why should I accept it?

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Is your basic question "How come God has the authority to give me rules, and expect obedience to those rules?"

Now, back to the previous stuff. Don't forget that the ancient Israelites lived in a theocracy. The laws of this theocracy were dictated by God, and the leaders inspired by and chosen by revelation from God. The Law of Moses was strict, severe, particular, and necessarily so. The Israelites were unable to keep the higher law (the law the Jesus Christ taught when he came,) so instead they were given the Law of Moses as a preparatory law. As they learned to obey the Law of Moses strictly and willingly, they would be better prepared to obey the higher and more difficult Law that Jesus Christ gave.

In that culture, oaths were and are of incredible importance and gravitas. Even the most casual of oaths are kept strictly. The 2nd greatest oath is to swear on your own life, and the greatest oath is to swear in the name of God. Breaking these oaths in that society is severe enough that capital punishment is often given. There are even records of individuals, who after swearing something in the name of God, and failing to accomplish it, took their own lives. These people made an oath, in the name of God and on their own lives to obey the laws given to them by God. The consequences of their actions were known to them ahead of time, and if they still chose to rebel against the laws, they could not claim that they were ignorant of the laws they had sworn to obey, nor could they claim they were ignorant of the punishment attached to their violation.

You say that to you, murder is the only thing worthy of capital punishment, and not wickedness. Sin leads to death. Death of the body is unavoidable I suppose, but as we sin, our spirit is separated further and further from God. This separation of our spirit from God is spiritual death. Spiritual death is far worse in consequence than physical death. The things that capital punishment was attached to in that time could inflict widespread damage to the spiritual health of many people, and it was better that one or two people who had almost entirely cut themselves off from God be put to death than for the entire Israelite nation to dwindle in unbelief and lose all of their "spritual" lives.

And the following interaction is a jewel:



Your belief or lack there of does not constitute evidence, as God isn't going to exist or not exist based on your opinion.

However, to be fair, the question isn't entirely even. God has left plenty of evidence of his existence, but he has done it in such a way that it is impossible to prove or disprove that he exists. He did it that way because he doesn't want a scholarly conversion, or in other words, he doesn't want us to obey him because our head knows he exists. He wants a conversion of our hearts, and our very selves. He wants us to obey him because we love him, not because we've added up the evidence and figure he must exist and would rather be on his good side. Once the conversion of our hearts is made, then we will see evidence and signs of his existence, not before.

But all in all, it comes down to the fact if someone actually believes in all that. Sin is meaningless. I don't believe in spirits or souls, so I don't believe that sinning will somehow kill me, unless that sin is to be a serial killer, or sleep with random hookers unprotected so I get some kind of disease.

I don't need to prove that god doesn't exist, you need to prove to me that he/she/it does. He who makes the extradionary claim bears the burdon of proof, and what's more extradionary than the notion of an all-powerful superbeing controlling the universe? You say there is plenty of evidence of his existence, but just what is that? Don't bring in the bible, because that was written by man. Anything else you can try to come up with can be entirely coincidence. If something happens, you say enough things about it, and it will make sense. Back a thousand years, the idea that serpents in your belly caused indigestion made sense to those people, because they didn't have any better way to explain it.

But let me ask you, how are you so sure that your religion is right? How do you know the Aztecs didn't have it right? Or the ancient Egyptians? Their claims are just as extradionary as yours, they have just as much "proof" that you do that they're right. Try to think how the heck they could have believed that, now aim that mindset to yourself.

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