Is Magic necessarily Evil

Black Knight · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:35 pm

I had a question I always wanted to ask. Is magic necessarily evil? I mean real magic, and not just some twisted black magic. I've heard all sorts of accounts from people with religious backgrounds, yet none of them really went in depth enough for my tastes. Why would it be "evil" if it wasn't used for evil? Please I'm really looking for some good discussion on this topic.

No Toppings · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:41 pm

well, i really dont think even twisted black magic would always be evil. I really dont think that magic would be considered evil at all, i mean if you were to help someone, would that be evil just because its magic? It you kept someone from certain death, would that be evil just because it is magic? No i dont think so.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:43 pm

Well, I personally don't believe in magic. Most people thought that "witches" were getting their "magic abilities" from Satan and were therefore evil. Of course, none of the people who they hung or drowned or burned were actually dealing with Satan, but whatever.

Didymus · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:01 pm

Depends on what you mean by "magic." In the ancient world, the only known magic was that directly connected to pagan gods and demons. For that reason, the ancient Hebrew faith and the Christian faith forbid its use. But if you mean "magic" like the kind used by Elves and Leprechauns, you know, to make cookies and cereal, then I wouldn't think so.

In looking at magic, it is necessary to understand not just the intended use, but also the source of the power involved. Most magic is derived from demonic spirits, and for that reason, one must be very careful in using it. But the ancient Masters had other sources to draw upon as well. Don't ask me to elaborate on that; I have not studied enough of the arcane arts to explain. Maybe when I reach my 5th Level and can gain a few extra Knowledge Skill Points.

Quote:

Of course, none of the people who they hung or drowned or burned were actually dealing with Satan, but whatever.

I'm not sure you can say that with absolute certainty, Evin. Surely there must have been at least a few black mages in history.

ramrod · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:10 pm

In my mind, there's at least two types of magic (if they exist). There the evil, dark type, and there's the good healing type. Like I said though, it might not exist, but it's possible that it does.

T-Smash · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:29 pm

How could something be evil if it doesn't exist?

Black Knight · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:35 pm

Quote:

In looking at magic, it is necessary to understand not just the intended use, but also the source of the power involved. Most magic is derived from demonic spirits, and for that reason, one must be very careful in using it. But the ancient Masters had other sources to draw upon as well.

So basically your saying if the source isn't evil, and the use isn't evil....it isn't evil. Do you possibly have something to back up your point of view, or is this one of those misplaced skill point subjects?

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:51 pm

As a Christian, I believe that magic is the work of Satan. Even if there is such a thing as "white" or "good" magic, no one who follows the 10 Commandments should practice it because it puts other gods before the LORD & is also a form of idolatry.

ramrod · **Posted:** Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:19 pm

IantheGecko wrote:

As a Christian, I believe that magic is the work of Satan. Even if there is such a thing as "white" or "good" magic, no one who follows the 10 Commandments should practice it because it puts other gods before the LORD & is also a form of idolatry.

What if the magic they're using is derived from the LORD?

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:03 am

Black Knight wrote:

So basically your saying if the source isn't evil, and the use isn't evil....it isn't evil. Do you possibly have something to back up your point of view, or is this one of those misplaced skill point subjects?

Actually, I'm being facetious. I don't really believe in "magic" per se. But I do believe that there are forces at work in our world which are beyond our understanding. And, as is the case with all things with which we lack understanding, it is best not to mess with them. I'm not an auto mechanic, so don't ask me to fix a car. That sort of thing.

Some Christians are paranoid about magic, assuming that any reference to magic is steeped in the occult. Some of them won't even read "The Lord Of The Rings" because it has magic in it. That, to me, is sad (especially considering that Tolkien himself was a devout Christian).

As for the Lord's power being used for evil purposes: The Second Commandment says, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord." Any attempt to use God's name to perform evil magic will only hurt the one who tries it. God will not tolerate his name being used for evil magic, nor does he tolerate peoplt trying to manipulate him the way ancient pagans tried to manipulate their gods. I do believe, however, that the Lord sometimes does allow his name to be used to heal, exorcise, and bless, particularly through the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion.

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:36 am

ramrod wrote:

Quote:

What if the magic they're using is derived from the LORD?

There is no magic from God; only the Holy Spirit. That ties into what Didymus just said.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:38 am

Didymus wrote:

I'm not sure you can say that with absolute certainty, Evin. Surely there must have been at least a few black mages in history.

Well, I don't believe in Satan, nor do I believe in "magic." Blech... Oh, and if there were any witches, wouldn't they be able to live being burned?

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:44 am

Not if they don't cast "Resist Flame" in time. Besides, everybody knows that witches are made of wood, and therefore burn very easily.

And I do believe in Satan. So there!

Evin290 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:04 am

And because wood floats, and so do ducks, anyone who weighs the same as a duck is a witch.

Well I don't believe in Satan, so there!

Discount Brick · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:11 am

Ditto, and for the people out there who think harry potter is evil, notice that in the front it says "fiction" which means its FAKE!

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:22 am

I've never read any of the Harry Potter books, but I did see like the last half hour of the first movie. Here's a hint: NEVER ENTER A DUNGEON WITH ONLY THREE LOW-LEVEL MAGES! Are you freaking suicidal, you little brats? The least you could have done was had that big hairy guy with you to act as the Meat Shield. SHEESH!

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:33 am

Discount Brick wrote:

Ditto, and for the people out there who think harry potter is evil, notice that in the front it says "fiction" which means its FAKE!

Remember the wohle crap about Harry Potter leading kids to Satanism? It turns out that "article" that "reported" kids becoming Satanists was actually in The Onion, the great humor magazine! You can read about it here...

Prof. Tor Coolguy · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:28 am

Ok, if magic dosn't have to be evil then what's up with excorists? They have to know some tricks to get all the demons out which would possibly mean having to be satinic bible literate. You have to know your enemy and that's shown by the some of the seminarys in the vadicen, they are now offering classes in the dark arts so that local priests know the difference between common mental conditions and accual possesion.

Dr. Zaius · **Joined:** Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:10 am **Posts:** 175

T-Smash wrote:

How could something be evil if it doesn't exist?

You mean like Satan?

Anyway, I find the concept of magic an impossibility. Matter cannot be spontaneously created, so many "spells" are a total crock. I do belive in mind over matter, however. Telekinesis is something I often think about. Not on the level of Tetsuo from Akira, and not as weak as that bending spoons BS, but somewhere in the middle.

The fear of magic (or magik for those wannabe wikan dorks) comes from the fear of the unknown, and back when, there was MUCH that was unknown. The witch scares of Salem and the Spanish Inquisition were mostly on land greed rather than a genuine fear of evil mages though. Vilification of the occult was mostly in due of the church making everything that was not it's own seem evil and bad so they wouldn't lose influence to other ideals.

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:22 am

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition was more concerned with rooting out Jewish and Muslim spies (remember all the conflict Spain had with the Moors?). One article I read claimed that Ferdinand and Isabella wanted to us the Inquisition to attack Protestants. Which is odd, considering that Protestantism didn't even begin until like 40 years later.

The Salem witch-burners were just fanatical idiots. A hundred years of Puritanism will do that to you. They would have burned me as a witch, just because I'm Lutheran.

But don't rule out the possibility of magic, though. Most magic is not concerned with spontaneously creating matter, and thus remains untouched by your argument. Most magic is concerned with manipulation of energy sources within matter, which wouldn't be terribly different from your telekinesis, although on a sub-material level. I have not personally observed this type of magic at work, but who knows? Just because it is beyond our current experience does not mean it could never happen.

Dr. Zaius · **Joined:** Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:10 am **Posts:** 175

Quote:

But don't rule out the possibility of magic, though. Most magic is not concerned with spontaneously creating matter, and thus remains untouched by your argument. Most magic is concerned with manipulation of energy sources within matter, which wouldn't be terribly different from your telekinesis, although on a sub-material level. I have not personally observed this type of magic at work, but who knows? Just because it is beyond our current experience does not mean it could never happen.

I know, I'm just saying that since one chunk of it is malarkey, there isn't much to say about the rest.

Quote:

The Salem witch-burners were just fanatical idiots. A hundred years of Puritanism will do that to you. They would have burned me as a witch, just because I'm Lutheran.

Ah, nice to see we agree on some things :mrgreen:

Quote:

Actually, the Spanish Inquisition was more concerned with rooting out Jewish and Muslim spies (remember all the conflict Spain had with the Moors?). One article I read claimed that Ferdinand and Isabella wanted to us the Inquisition to attack Protestants. Which is odd, considering that Protestantism didn't even begin until like 40 years later.

Well, my statement on the land grabbing having a greater influence than righteous murder of "wicked" people still stands

Didymus · **Posted:** Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:02 am

Quote:

I know, I'm just saying that since one chunk of it is malarkey, there isn't much to say about the rest.

Except that magic isn't exactly a developed coherent system. Disproving that one part doesn't really touch the rest at all. "Spontaneous creation of of matter" is a straw man.

Quote:

Well, my statement on the land grabbing having a greater influence than righteous murder of "wicked" people still stands

You are correct. But I was just pointing out that the Inquisition wasn't really about witches.

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:20 am

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:

Ok, if magic dosn't have to be evil then what's up with excorists? They have to know some tricks to get all the demons out which would possibly mean having to be satinic bible literate.

Exorcists use the Holy Spirit & the Word of God, not magic, to cast out demons. Since they're Catholic, they speak Latin because it is the principal language of both the Catholic & the Satanic churches.

FatPamPam · **Joined:** Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:15 am **Posts:** 42

IantheGecko wrote:

ramrod wrote:

Quote:

What if the magic they're using is derived from the LORD?

There is no magic from God; only the Holy Spirit. That dies into what Didymus just said.

Do you believe in the Trinity? In that doctrine, the Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, and the Father is God.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:46 am

I don't think he meant "magic from the Holy Spirit" (although that is what one might assume, gramatically.) I think he meant - there is no magic from God, only the Holy Spirit of God.

IantheGecko · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:22 am

FatPamPam wrote:

Do you believe in the Trinity? In that doctrine, the Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, and the Father is God.

Yes, I do believe in the Trinity.

evin290 wrote:

I think he meant - there is no magic from God, only the Holy Spirit of God.

Not quite. There is no magic from God, nor any of the Trinity. It goes against Him, & is therefore evil.

Prof. Tor Coolguy · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:50 pm

I know christianity isn't magic but excorsists have to know their enemy so if the time comes when they have to cast out an especially tough demon it would be nice if you could use a loophole of the satinic bible to get the demon out.

I know there are summoning spells avaliable so there must be the oppisit(sp?)

AgentSeethroo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:

I know christianity isn't magic but excorsists have to know their enemy so if the time comes when they have to cast out an especially tough demon it would be nice if you could use a loophole of the satinic bible to get the demon out.

I know there are summoning spells avaliable so there must be the oppisit(sp?)

If we're talking about demons, you don't cast out the Devil with the Devil.

Jesus Christ himself even spoke about that.

The thing that removes the demonic presence is the name of Christ Himself, which holds authority over everything.

Prof. Tor Coolguy · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:11 pm

Meh, mabye I've been reading too many comic books

AgentSeethroo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:13 pm

Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:

Meh, mabye I've been reading too many comic books

Heh. Sounds like it, Prof.

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