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Significance of the Holy Bible
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2090		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Black Knight [ Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:20 pm ]
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Words are a vocal/visual way of communicating thoughts, and ideas. The problem is you have to many people that focus on the word and not on the concept. For example the concept of the Bible being infallible.
Words The Bible is infallible. This means that the Bible cannot be changed to misrepresent itself, it cannot be erroneous.
The words can be made untrue. I can easily download the Bible and change whatever I like. Then I could print up thousands of copies and spread it to the four corners of the Earth.

The concept however is true. Although I can change the text, people will raise to fight against me. No one would accept a Bible that I crafted. So concepts of the Bible would remain unchanged even though I tried so hard to change it.
I can change the text, but I cannot change the spirit behind the Bible. It will live on forever.
So remember focus on the IDEAS not the words. Literally means focusing on the WORDS hence the meaning word for word
Author:  Evin290 [ Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:27 pm ]
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That's what I've been saying. If you take each and every word of the bible to its literal meaning, you end up with all types of crazy crap. One needs to know the meaning of the bible, not the meaning of the words of the bible.
Author:  lahimatoa [ Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:36 pm ]
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Just to differentiate, Protestants are called Protestants because they originated from those who protested what was going on in the Catholic church. Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, Calvin, and others were notable leaders in the movement. The Catholics tried to put down these rebellions and burned, dismembered, or otherwise killed a lot of people who disagreed with them.

Protestants survived, however, but managed to disagree among themselves about the nature of God, the afterlife, etc. and broke off into different sects such as the Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc.

Short short short history of the concept of "protestant".
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:29 am ]
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evin290 wrote:
That's what I've been saying. If you take each and every word of the bible to its literal meaning, you end up with all types of crazy crap. One needs to know the meaning of the bible, not the meaning of the words of the bible.

But how can you know the meaning of the Bible itself without knowing the meaning of the words?

Now, if you mean that those words need to be understood in their context, and that even the context needs to be understood by relation to the complete message of the Bible, then I would agree. But I must continue to express that words do have meaning.
Author:  Evin290 [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:35 am ]
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Oh, by no means was I trying to convey that the words of the Bible have no meaning. I just meant that one needs to take them as they were intended: in some cases literally and in some figuratively.
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:18 am ]
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I'll go with that.
Author:  IantheGecko [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:41 am ]
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Ricksea wrote:
How could Jesus have died thirty-three years before he was born?

Typographical error. Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.
Author:  Dr. Zaius [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:49 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
evin290 wrote:
That's what I've been saying. If you take each and every word of the bible to its literal meaning, you end up with all types of crazy crap. One needs to know the meaning of the bible, not the meaning of the words of the bible.

But how can you know the meaning of the Bible itself without knowing the meaning of the words?

Now, if you mean that those words need to be understood in their context, and that even the context needs to be understood by relation to the complete message of the Bible, then I would agree. But I must continue to express that words do have meaning.


Do you know what an idiom is? That's just what the bible is, one long, long idiom...
Author:  Didymus [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:41 am ]
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I thought an idiom is what Sir Lancelot does when he attacks castles.
Author:  Evin290 [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:20 am ]
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Quote:
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven

I really hope you didn't mean what I think you meant by saying that...
Author:  Discount Brick [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:28 pm ]
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Quote:
Isn't it nicer to think of it that way?


Yor right, it's nicer to think there is no God, so that we don't have to worry about going to hell.(no offense, I'm just saying that it's not good to think like that)
Author:  Evin290 [ Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:38 pm ]
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I meant that it's nicer to think that you can do something and that you can make a difference, rather than saying only God can do things and we should leave everything up to him. I never said that it was nice to think that there isn't any God (although it certainly is simpler... sheesh...)
Author:  Dr. Zaius [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:54 am ]
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We don't have to worry about going to Hell, because it doesn't exist :p

You don't need to be Christian to be a good person, a fact that is often lost on some people. And you don't need to comply to the rules of Christianity to be a good person either. By that I mean indulgence and overall being human is not a bad thing, as long as you don't over do it. Adhering to the basic rules of civilized society is all it takes. Don't kill, don't steal, be polite, and help others when you can is what makes a person "good". Using profanity, having sex (with the opposite or same gender), enjoying violent entertainment, and most of the other things that are condemned by the fundies does NOT make one "bad"...
Author:  Didymus [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:41 am ]
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So you say, Zaius, but yours is not the only opinion on the subject.
Author:  Dr. Zaius [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:09 am ]
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Neither is yours. So until someone is revitalized after being dead long enough for the electrical pulses in their brain to dissipate and tells us what they saw (or didn't see) this will forever be inconclusive. Until then, opinions is all we have :)
Author:  Evin290 [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:23 pm ]
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Well, Dr. Z., that scenario would prove inconclusive aswell because what if the person in question, due to loss of brain function instances prior to the time of death, became "high" (because of brain cell loss) and imagined heaven/hell or couldn't see heaven/hell clearly? And when you subsequently "raise" them from the dead, they'd give misinformation. (Unless of course the entire situation was meant as satire to the mere notion of there being a heaven or hell at all :p )
Author:  Dr. Zaius [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:08 pm ]
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When did I say "loss of brain function prior to death?"

To elaborate, when one dies, there is still juice in the brain. That electric energy is the brain still functioning. When the body dies, the brain still "lives" for a decent amount of time. Resesitation of the body with that energy still present would compromise the whole experiment, as the person wasn't fully "dead". What I'm proposing is that the brain is to be given adequate time for all that energy to fade away, THEN do the medical magic... pending such a things is at all possible. If not now, then in the imminent future.

But yeah, it was also meant to be taken as a joke, but me explaining it like this has ruined it. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!
Author:  Evin290 [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:27 pm ]
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I am :-)

You never said loss of brain function, I did. I meant that the loss of brain function might cause hallucinations.
Author:  IantheGecko [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:46 am ]
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evin290 wrote:
Quote:
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven

I really hope you didn't mean what I think you meant by saying that...
What's that supposed to mean? Nobody's perfect; Christians are just forgiven for their sins.
Author:  Evin290 [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:39 am ]
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So what you're saying is, no matter what, if you're Christian, God forgives you, and if you're not, he doesn't? So, in that case, every other religion is 100% faulty and only yours counts at all in the eyes of God? Is that what you mean?
Author:  FatPamPam [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Uh...no
No, he never said that.

He said God forgives Christians who sin. He never said that God doesn't forgive nonchristians who sin. God forgives everybody. Since Christians are people, God forgives them.
Author:  Evin290 [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:53 am ]
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What I made a point of was that he said Christians. If he had said: "I'm only human. Humans aren't perfect, just forgiven." That would've been fine. I only assumed that he was implying that non-Christians weren't forgiven. If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry IanTheGecko. I just hate the "we're right and everyone else is wrong" state of mind that some religion fanatics have. Other religion fanatics care more about God than their religion being the best, and those are the religion fanatics I like ;)

Well, no harm done, I suppose...
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:52 am ]
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But now we reach an interesting conundrum: most people who follow a religion typically do so because they think it's right.
Author:  Evin290 [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:56 am ]
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And that's why I believe in God but am not religious. I have no way of determining what religion is right, so I just go about things in my own way... :p
Author:  IantheGecko [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uh...no
FatPamPam wrote:
He never said that God doesn't forgive nonchristians who sin. God forgives everybody. Since Christians are people, God forgives them.

No, you're wrong. God does not forgive everybody; only those who believe He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to die for all of our sins are forgiven.
Author:  FatPamPam [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uh...no
IantheGecko wrote:
FatPamPam wrote:
He never said that God doesn't forgive nonchristians who sin. God forgives everybody. Since Christians are people, God forgives them.

No, you're wrong. God does not forgive everybody; only those who believe He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to die for all of our sins are forgiven.


Oh, okay. Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your post.
I'd counter-argue, but I'm not much into debating.
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:13 am ]
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I'll put it to you like this:
St. Paul wrote:
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:18-20.

By dying on the cross, Jesus reconciled all people to God. Basically, this means that he has done his part in healing the broken relationship between us and God. However, those who refuse to be reconciled still have a broken relationship.

Let's take an example. Let's say a husband and wife were getting divorced. Later, the husband decides he wants to reconcile the relationship, but the wife refuses to accept the reconciliation. The divorce is still in effect, even though the husband wants reconciliation. The same is true with God. In Christ, he reaches out to reconcile us to him. Unfortunately, there are those who are not willing to accept this reconciliation, and so with them, the relationship is still broken.

Jesus did say, "I am the life, the truth, and the way. No one comes unto the Father except by me." It's not about whether our opinions are right, or whether we have all the answers. It's about whether he's right, and whether we're willing to accept what he's already done for us as real.

So how does that work with other religions? Well, on one level, my faith is that Christ alone is worthy to reconcile us to God. On the other hand, I really don't want to believe that God condemns anyone who is not Christian. In this matter, I can only believe that God meant what he said and leave it at that. If there is any redemption available in other religions, it has not been revealed to me, and therefore I cannot say how God deals with them. I can only say that my assurance comes through the cross of Jesus Christ and the waters of Holy Baptism, and that is the only assurance I can offer anyone else.
Author:  Evin290 [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uh...no
IantheGecko wrote:
No, you're wrong. God does not forgive everybody; only those who believe He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to die for all of our sins are forgiven.


I thought that this was what you meant. Hey, Didymus? Is there a passage in the Bible about being self-rightious and intolerant of other and believing that only you are right? If so, I think that Ian should read it :p
Author:  Didymus [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm ]
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There is a passage about being "wise as serpents and gentle as doves" (meaning, "know what you're talking about, but say it in a way that doesn't deliberately alienate people").
Author:  Plaster-Man [ Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:03 am ]
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If I was to read the Bible, I would think of it as a fantasy, like The Lord of The Rings. If this all happned then, why is none happening now is my question.
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