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Ricksea · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:51 pm

If you can't figure it out, this thread is about going to church (the title is bells, get it?). Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is about going to church. In fact, I know someone who goes to church every week, but they don't really do anything with themselves except go to school and plop down in front of the television every night. I volunteer, help others, and actually do something with my life, but I don't go to church because I'm not Christian. This person believes that because they go to church and I don't, they're going to Heaven and I'm going to Hell.

AgentSeethroo · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:56 pm

Church has nothing to do with going to Heaven or Hell.

It's the relationship with Christ that brings salvation.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:17 pm

Well, if you're not Christian , you obviously don't have to go to church. But even if you were, it depends on how religious you are. I'm Jewish, but I rarely go to temple, I don't keep kosher and I work on Saturdays. This is one of the reasons why I hate religion. Which one's right and which ones are wrong? That question can never be answered. I think that fanatics who take differences in religion so serious as "if you're not my religion you're going to hell" or "if you're not my religion I'll kill you!" My personal belief is that all religions are just manifestations of the same religion. Whatever. You're not going to hell (if there is a hell) so don't worry. :mrgreen:

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:44 am

I don't believe that there even is a heaven, hell, or afterlife (but I do believe in a force controlling the universe). What upsets me is people hating me just because I'm not religious.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:57 am

If the HATE you because you're not religious then they're mean. If they want to MAKE you religious, they're controlling. Don't be friends with anybody like that.

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:16 am

I must ask: if you don't go to church, and you don't believe in heaven or hell, then what's the whole point of this thread?

thefreakyblueman · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:20 am

Didymus wrote:

I must ask: if you don't go to church, and you don't believe in heaven or hell, then what's the whole point of this thread?

I think it's just about questioning the activity of going to church.

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:32 am

Didymus wrote:

I must ask: if you don't go to church, and you don't believe in heaven or hell, then what's the whole point of this thread?

Let me restate my point. I am angered by the principle that people who go to church think they're better than evryone else, just because they go to church. So what is it about going to church that makes these people better than those who don't?

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:37 am

Okay. You are basically disgusted with some of the self-righteousness of people who think that going to church makes them better than everyone else.

I don't think that going to church makes people necessarily better. But church is the place where the Word and the Sacraments are administered, and these help to increase faith and forgive sins.

Prof. Tor Coolguy · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:16 am

I beleve that the Agent got a undenyable head shot on this thread.

ramrod · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:45 am

Ricksea wrote:

I am angered by the principle that people who go to church think they're better than evryone else, just because they go to church. So what is it about going to church that makes these people better than those who don't?

I know what you mean. I go to Church (catholic) every Sunday. Am I any holier than someone who doesn't go every week? No. Anyone who says that they are holier than you, and who aren't a man or woman of God is a self-righteous nut job. For me, it's not about what religion you're in, or if you go to Church every week, it's about this basic thing; Are you a good person? Do you try to do the best possible things? Do you generally avoid sin when possible? Helping out others that need help is the way to receive a good, eternal life, not just going to Church and then doing nothing else to help.

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:37 am

St. Luke wrote:

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (18:9-14)

It's not even about "being good" at all. It's about whom you trust: yourself or God. Here, the one man trusted himself; he thought he was righteous because of all his good deeds (and he counted "church" as one of them). The second, however, realized he was a sinner and turned to God, asking for forgiveness. And he received it.

Those who go to church to prove how good they are sin by doing so. But those who go to church because they wish to increase their faith by hearing the Word of God, to receive forgiveness of their sins through the Sacraments, and to be a part of the Christian community...well, that's a different story.

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:19 pm

But, Didymus, you're getting off-topic. Even if accepting "God" is more important than being a good person, isn't it being self-righteous to go around preaching to others that they're going to hell because you don't go to church?

Let me get this straight: You think that accepting God is more important than being good? You think that an athiest who feeds the hungry is a worse person than a christian (I refuse to capatalize that word anymore; some things are more important than grammar) who murders? This makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

By the way, say it to my screen, do you think I'm going to hell?

racerx_is_alive · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:18 pm

I think you have wrested Didymus' words to mean something he didn't even say.

The main point that I got out of Didymus' post was that people can go to church for the right reason, or for the wrong reason. Some people (obviously the people you are discussing) go so everyone else can see "what a good person they are." To make themselves seem more righteous or justified, they put down everyone else that they can for whatever reason they can. They are wrapped up in pride, and choose to condemn others rather than accept all in a spirit of love. Didymus tried to point out that there are others who go to church only to try and build and heal their relationship with God. These people aren't going so that you will think they are good. They won't condemn you for not going. They may invite you to come, but they won't be offended if you turn their offer down. These people are humble, and though they may attend at the very same church as the former prideful people from above, they go for reasons that I think all of us can respect.

For someone to say "You don't go to church so you are going to Hell" is not only prideful, but downright un-Christian. They themselves should be the ones who are worried about Hell for judging unrighteously. Also, why would you request that someone tell you that they think you are or aren't going to Hell? Are you trying to provoke them into fitting the mold for the stereotypical "Christian" that you have defined for yourself?

Didymus · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:00 pm

Quote:

Let me get this straight: You think that accepting God is more important than being good? You think that an athiest who feeds the hungry is a worse person than a christian (I refuse to capatalize that word anymore; some things are more important than grammar) who murders? This makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

Nevertheless, it is the message of Sacred Scripture. I will not only cite the passage I quoted earlier, but also Ephesians 2:8-9. The message is VERY clear: God is certainly more concerned that we accept him than that we do good works, because good works apart from faith are mere boasting. I will follow up by pointing to Ephesians 2:10, though. God DOES expect his people to do good works. It's not a matter of which is more important, but which comes first.

It's funny. I thought the Luke passage I cited earlier actually addressed your concern over self-righteous church-goers. I do not understand why you are suddenly angry with me for citing it. I thought you would understand.

Naked_Lunch · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:03 pm

I don't go to church anymore (haven't since my mom died, which led to me losing faith in religion) but Isee nothing wrong with people going to it. A couple of years after my mom died, I hated everything and everyone religious. The dogma, the restrictions, but the biggest thing I despised was the man sitting on the cloud, saying "Naughty, Naughty!" Who's he to decide when I'm wrong or right? I was on a rampage. I read up and was high of Nietzsche, screaming my lungs out on the mountaintop "GOD IS DEAD! Christian values are foolish, based on ancient, archaic, and outdated ideas(In retrospect, this was more of the Catholic church then all of Christianity)!"

Then I cooled off for a bit and actually began thinking rationally (Something my good pal Freidrich forgot to do) and realized: Look at these people, who are so enjoyed in faith, go to church with a smile on their faces, Who am I to judge their religion and faith? Would that not make me as bad as the fool in the sky? While I personally follow no particulary religion, whenever people ask me exactly what religion I follow I say "A tossed salad of idealiologies", I have nothing against people who do put everything in their faith, mainly because they have nowhere else to go.

Sorry for the ranting, but I just wanted to get that off my chest. Atheists who boast about being atheists simply because they want to buck the establishment and tick off the right are idiots and schmucks who are no worse then the foaming-at-the-mouth fundamentalists. Thank you for your time.

Evin290 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:29 pm

Wow. That's incredible: "a tossed salad of idealiologies." Can I use that one?

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:49 pm

Alright, I now see your point about admitting sin over glorifying charity and good deeds, but how do you feel about those who do good anonymously and don't attend church at all?

Naked_Lunch · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:00 pm

Those are what are known as "good people", they're quite rare nowadays.

Just because you don't go to church doesn't automatically erase the good deeds you've done from cosmic existence. It's been said before, going to Church isn't about being "good", it's about connecting to whichever God you believe in and praising him and asking for forgiveness. Oh and evin, yeah you can use that.

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:06 pm

Naked_Lunch wrote:

Those are what are known as "good people", they're quite rare nowadays. Oh and evin, yeah you can use that.

Some book of which's name I can't remember wrote:

There is still lots of good in this world.

Naked_Lunch · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:14 pm

Yes, there is some good in the world but it is vastly overshadowed by the bad. I mean, turn on the news and what do you see most? Death, destruction, rape, murder, and GORE GORE GORE! When's the last time you saw a big primetime news special on old Mrs. Foyer who baked cookies for the sick or that guy who took in all the sick kittens? Nah, it's always on the violence becuase that brings in the SLAM DUNK RATINGS! There may be more good than evil in the world but nobody's seeing it...

Ricksea · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:19 pm

That's a very pesismistic way of looking at the world, Naked_Lunch. Terrible news stories attract ratings because they are full of drama, drama that most people don't see in there daily life. The news stories are deffinitely a rarity.

Of course, with all these terrible news stories, you certainly have a right to be pesimistic.

Naked_Lunch · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:38 pm

I'm not being pessimistic, in real life I'm pretty much indifferent. I was just telling the truth. But anyway, let's get back on topic shall we?

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