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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:24 pm 
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Hold on, Hold on, Hold on Hold on, Hold on when was this guy alive and when was his grapic novles popular? This guy seems like a huge nut and his comics are creepy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:36 pm 
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The other tracts I've read just ticked me off, but that one is hilarious!

"@!!**... I forgot my chain saw!"

"Halloween started in the British Isles with the Druids. Those guys were really spooky."

"Hi, guys... Welcome to the laughing place!" "You rat!"

And I love the pastor in flannel.

Okay, so it still pisses me off when he gets just about all the facts wrong, but seriously..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:47 pm 
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lumberjack vegetable wrote:
I hate to delabor the point...


Hey! No delabors. :p

Anyway, I've found most of those tracts pants-wettingly funny. Has anyone else noticed how many of them seem to end with someone kneeling on the floor saying "I submit to Jesus Christ as my saviour and admit to being a sinner"?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:54 pm 
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Yeah, that "those guys were really spooky" line made me laugh out loud.

I have heard that he was a failed comic book writer, and he finally won his fame by scaring the heck out of people.

As far as being popular, it was only in certain ones, "sppoky" ones, if I may.

EDIT: what I meant by that last unintelligible line was that, "He was popular in certain circles, the "spooky ones." What came out my fingers needed some revision to say the least. It must be the french vanilla in this Folgers.


Last edited by lumberpeg vegeplank on Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:54 pm 
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lumberjack vegetable wrote:

A Real Question: Has that ever worked for any of you, I mean, rebuking the devil the the name of God?



Do most Christians believe that? That most people will "fry in hell" as Jack Chick says? And in that case, why DON'T you force me to be a Christian so I won't spend eternity in hell? I mean, aren't I worth it? Hell sure looks like a terrible terrible terrible place!

I was just kidding, don't force me to become a Christian.


Good questions. Believe it or not, answers are comin'.

First of all, Rebuking? Yes.
I've actually experienced a girl getting "possessed" by a demon. It was seriously the scariest thing I've ever witnessed...suddenly this girl I'd known forever was telling me things that NO ONE knew about me...Stuff that happened when I was all alone and no person was looking. Scary. Also, her voice changed...the way she talked...scary again.

The only way this thing was defeated was because I knew to speak the name of Jesus to it. Jesus Christ holds Authority, being son of God. Since he lives in my heart, I can speak using His authority against the enemy (what I call the devil).

Will most people "fry in hell?" Well, a lot will. This is a touchy subject with most people when it comes to God and God's love.
If Christ isn't your savior, yes, you go to Hell. That's what the Bible says.
Before Christ came, man had to redeem himself through actions and sacrifices. It was really hard to gain favor from God, but he had a plan. He sent His son to be a final sacrifice to redeem sins. I'm sure you've heard all that before..

Like I said, yes, you have to receive Jesus to get into heaven. But think about this. What about a child? what about a baby that dies in the womb or during childbirth? There comes in an issue of "accountability".

The age of accountability is that age when a person realizes a difference between right and wrong. Not when they realize they can get in trouble for doing things they've got in trouble for in the past, but when they "grow" a knowledge of "good and evil" if you will.
Children never get this, and can't know about their sin, therefore they are not held accountable for their sins. It's sort of an "express lane" into heaven.

Some people spend their entire lives not knowing about sin, for example, people in tribal Africa who've never known anything other than their tribal religion and customs. They don't know that what they are doing is against God's will, they don't know they're doing anything wrong at all. How can they be accountable for something they don't know?

Therefore, Some people never reach the point of accountability.

However, there are LOTS of people who DO reach it and never make a decision. Those people go. It kinda sucks, but everyone in modern (Western) society has a chance to ask about Christ SOME time in their lives.

If we (Christians) know this, why aren't we forcing people to become Christians? Well, we'd like to, trust me, but it doesn't work that way. It's a choice you have to make on your own, and we just supply the information and experiences to you.

It's a labor of love, really. We don't try to share because we're better than you, or because we think you're a bad person and need to change yourself. We just want you to know the joy and peace and love that we do.


Wow...that was my longest post I think.


The Josh.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:02 pm 
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lumberjack vegetable wrote:
"Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die" Is that even from the Bible?

Luke 12:13-21 NIV wrote:
Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." Jesus replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.'

"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry."

"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'

"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:09 pm 
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AgentSeethroo wrote:
Some people spend their entire lives not knowing about sin, for example, people in tribal Africa who've never known anything other than their tribal religion and customs. They don't know that what they are doing is against God's will, they don't know they're doing anything wrong at all. How can they be accountable for something they don't know?


Okay, here's where we run into trouble. So someone who's never heard of Jesus gets into heaven despite their sins and despite never having recieved Jesus. Well, that sounds all fine and good. Except that you have to realize that in every culture, whether they've heard of Jesus or not, there are people whom most Christians (and many non-Christians) would characterize as evil. Every culture has murderers and rapists. But you say that because they've never heard of Jesus, and don't know that what they've done is a "sin", they get a free pass into heaven. So if Jeffrey Dahmer had been born in darkest Africa instead of Milwaukee, with no missionaries around, he'd have gone to heaven, but I still won't?

And yeah, the Jeffrey Dahmer example is egregious, sure, but unless you're prepared to agree with the above analysis, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere.

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Oh, I guess it's "Eat drink and be merry, for TONIGHT you die. That's even crazier.

Thank you for the reference.

In that context, I like it, though. I think it's good to remember that life doesn't last forever. And that worldly goods don't make your life better; I forget that a lot.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:21 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
AgentSeethroo wrote:
Some people spend their entire lives not knowing about sin, for example, people in tribal Africa who've never known anything other than their tribal religion and customs. They don't know that what they are doing is against God's will, they don't know they're doing anything wrong at all. How can they be accountable for something they don't know?


Okay, here's where we run into trouble. So someone who's never heard of Jesus gets into heaven despite their sins and despite never having recieved Jesus. Well, that sounds all fine and good. Except that you have to realize that in every culture, whether they've heard of Jesus or not, there are people whom most Christians (and many non-Christians) would characterize as evil. Every culture has murderers and rapists. But you say that because they've never heard of Jesus, and don't know that what they've done is a "sin", they get a free pass into heaven. So if Jeffrey Dahmer had been born in darkest Africa instead of Milwaukee, with no missionaries around, he'd have gone to heaven, but I still won't?

And yeah, the Jeffrey Dahmer example is egregious, sure, but unless you're prepared to agree with the above analysis, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere.


Outstanding counterpoint, IJ.
On that part, I have to admit that God has MUCH more wisdom than I do, and I know He knows what he's doin'. If there are any african tribal booty eating Dahmers out there, I'm positive God has some sort of way to discern trash from treasure.

I just have to pull the faith card for now. In the meantime, I'll hit the books and ask questions and try to find an answer for ya.

Just so you guys know, this thread has been really good for me. You guys have made me think, and question, and you continually affirm my faith.

Yer friendly neighborhood Jesus Freak,
Josh.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:58 pm 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
JoeyDay Wrote:
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"What gives you the impression that Christianity demands a blind faith?"

My frend's brother preaches to me and says stuff like "it's all about blind faith" don't lynch me that's what I grew up with

Coolguy, my question was asked in all honesty. I didn't mean it as an attack in any way. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

I would have to agree with others on this board (and thereby disagree with your friend's brother). Requiring a blind faith is a form of manipulating people. People will (and should) only believe in something if it seems reasonable for them to believe in it. No one should be forced to blindly accept what another person has said is true.

The Bible says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1 NIV). Faith does require a hope in something one cannot see, but faith is made sure by the things one can see. It is not made sure blindly.

Because we've seen the sun rise every day, we can have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, even though we haven't reached tomorrow yet. Because God has kept his promises in the past (as evidenced by the Bible and personal experiences) we can have a sure faith that he is fulfilling and will fulfill the rest of his promises in the future.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:54 pm 
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but when the lines of faith and truth are blurred... wars happen. faith is a completely personal thing, and I am always bothered by people who try to pass thier own personal faith off as absolute truth.

there is no absolute truth. if one has faith in something greater than ones self, that is true to that person. but it may not be true to others.

I have faith that there is something inside me which is not physical. I do not have faith in organized religion. Or Jesus for that matter.

I do however have faith in some of the teachings of Jesus (or whoever came up with them).

love one another. that's a good one. I wish more christians would hold true to that, and not focus so much on guilt and sin and what not. you know... chairity , compassion, love, all those things which bring light into the world.

I see the world in shades of gray
If only all men could see that way
there would be no lines of black or white
there would be no lines of wrong or right
there would be, however, dark and light
and the freedom to choose which cause to fight

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:01 pm 
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Zooropa wrote:
love one another. that's a good one. I wish more christians would hold true to that, and not focus so much on guilt and sin and what not. you know... chairity , compassion, love, all those things which bring light into the world.


Do me a favor, and don't generalize us. Read some of my past posts, then you'll know pretty much exactly what I believe. I quote myself in saying that ours is a labor of love, not of condemnation.


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InterruptorJones wrote:
So if Jeffrey Dahmer had been born in darkest Africa instead of Milwaukee, with no missionaries around, he'd have gone to heaven, but I still won't?

And yeah, the Jeffrey Dahmer example is egregious, sure, but unless you're prepared to agree with the above analysis, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere.

Fast fact, brought to you via Wikipedia:

Today in history... July 22, 1991 - Serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was arrested after the remains of 11 men and boys were found in his apartment.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:13 pm 
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I didn't think I singled out any of the above posts as an example. like you I was stating my personal opinions. because of the above posts I thought I could openly say what I beleived in. Because you seemed to be rational and intelligent. In no way do i think anyone above comes across as a doom and gloom Christian. sorry if you read it that way.

i was making generalizations about faith, not condeming your personal beleifs. if you read MY post you would realize that I don't think any one person has the right to tell another that they are right or wrong.

I said "I wish MORE Christians..." meaning that there are a bunch of people who are Christian that i completely respect and admire. there are also a bunch that annoy me to no end.

I have too many times come across people who will condem ME because of my non beleif in Christ, despite the fact that I am a very spritual person who believes in all things "good". When religion becomes fact, trouble starts. I am a huge fan of non-denominational christian churches because they belive in the common theme of Christ. they don't argue over the "rules"

when I quit my own religion, I spent many years researching all other religions, only to come to the conclusion that they all beleived in the same thing, but spent too much time arguing about "which church was true"

*shrug*

dude.. seriously, i wasn't directing any of the comments in the original post at anyone here, and most certainly not you.

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Zooropa wrote:
i was making generalizations about faith, not condeming your personal beleifs. if you read MY post you would realize that I don't think any one person has the right to tell another that they are right or wrong.

I said "I wish MORE Christians..." meaning that there are a bunch of people who are Christian that i completely respect and admire. there are also a bunch that annoy me to no end.


Completely understandable. Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your craw. I absolutely respect your decision and your belief, even though I may not necessarily believe. The interesting thing is, I've been in your shoes before, and I've followed similar beliefs, so I identify with what you're saying.

Even in my Christian life, I disagree with what most churches teach. Too many established church groups teach "doctrine" instead of just Jesus and his teachings. They teach that you have to worship a certain way or God won't be pleased, or you have to look a certian way or God will Smite Thee or something like that.

The only churches I really feel at home attending are Non-Denominational churches. I personally believe that denominations are a kind of "divide and conquer" tactic used by the enemy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:35 pm 
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word.


:)

we are in agreement that the common good is hindered by too much focus on "docterine"

you have a good energy about your words, sir.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:49 pm 
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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.


I tend to be suspicious towards any apparent mention of homosexuality in the Bible, so I decided to look this up, starting with finding it in the KJV. Here are the same verses:

The King James Version wrote:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


I am not sure what is meant by "effeminate" or "abusers of themselves with mankind" (the language of the KJV is certainly not my strong suit), but they are the offending terms, translated as "homosexual" in the RSV (it is worth noting that the original Greek did not use the Greek term for "homosexual", however). It does seem to say what it appears. But it is possible that the passage is taken out of context, or that the terms are not good translations of the original language. However, this passage is troublesome as it is in the New Testament, whereas if it were in the Old it could possibly be argued that it does not apply to Christians (many Jewish laws written in the Bible are no longer followed by Christians).

Upon more searching I found this page: http://www.cathedralofhope.com/homosexuality/

It says:

That Web Page wrote:
The New International Version illustrates the difference in these two words by translating them "male prostitute" and "homosexual offenders". The Jerusalem Bible uses the terms "catamites and "sodomites". Catamites were youth kept especially for sexual purpose; they were usually paid large sums of money. Neither passage refers to persons of same-sex orientation, but to people who used their sexuality for personal gain.


As you can see, whatever the case may be, there are more interpretations than the one you have chosen. Why, then, have you chosen the interpretation that you do?

- Kef


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Holy crap, how did I miss that post? Thanks for bringing it up, kef, and for citing a differing translation. Clearly whatever "translation" fahooglewitz1077 is citing is heavily edited and politicized, which is very unfortunate.

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Joeyday said:
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Coolguy, my question was asked in all honesty. I didn't mean it as an attack in any way. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

No probalo
Andwhat I ment by blind faith is that he says that when it looks ilke the world is beating down on you and god is holding out his hand to help that's when to excercise blind faith because god will come through sooner or later. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in that earlier.

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Hey folks, guess what? I'm going to play a little devil's (har har) advocate, and disagree with somebody or other.

Regarding 'blind faith' and Christianity:

Hebrews 11:1
Quote:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN

Hmmm.not seen, huh? Sounds like blind-related faith to me!

Or am I misinterpreting the passage? Uh, probably. Everyone else does, why can't I?


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lumberjack vegetable wrote:
Hey folks, guess what? I'm going to play a little devil's (har har) advocate, and disagree with somebody or other.

Regarding 'blind faith' and Christianity:

Hebrews 11:1
Quote:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN

Hmmm.not seen, huh? Sounds like blind-related faith to me!

Or am I misinterpreting the passage? Uh, probably. Everyone else does, why can't I?


Faith comes from knowing though.

If you know a person, have an intimate knowledge of their person, you can trust them.

God is the same way.

Anywho, the scripture can be easily explained like this: You can't see the wind, but you know it's there. Ya see?


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lemme give you a counterpoint,when the wind isn't there you know it still exisists and you hope for it to come to cool you off, blind faith again.

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AgentSeeThrough Said:
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Jesus Christ holds Authority, being son of God. Since he lives in my heart


Warning a little off topic:
Man I heard of people having that kind of connection, all I got was a meek 'n meger taste of the power,yah it almost knocked me off my feet and changed my life forever but I can only dream of a connection like that.

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Tim Mierz wrote:
As for whoever asked about what happens to those who never heard about Jesus? Well, after Christ's second coming there will be witnesses sent by God to help those who never knew of the way. It's a kind of second chance.

Tim, can you help me understand what you mean here? I've never heard this doctrine taught in a Christian church, and I'm wondering if you can back it up with any scriptures, or if this is simply your opinion. It's a comforting doctrine, to be sure, but are you accepting it because it's comforting, or because you've seen that it is biblical?

AgentSeethroo wrote:
Like I said, yes, you have to receive Jesus to get into heaven. But think about this. What about a child? what about a baby that dies in the womb or during childbirth? There comes in an issue of "accountability".

The age of accountability is that age when a person realizes a difference between right and wrong. Not when they realize they can get in trouble for doing things they've got in trouble for in the past, but when they "grow" a knowledge of "good and evil" if you will. Children never get this, and can't know about their sin, therefore they are not held accountable for their sins. It's sort of an "express lane" into heaven.

Some people spend their entire lives not knowing about sin, for example, people in tribal Africa who've never known anything other than their tribal religion and customs. They don't know that what they are doing is against God's will, they don't know they're doing anything wrong at all. How can they be accountable for something they don't know?

Therefore, Some people never reach the point of accountability.

I hate to be the first "doom and gloom" Christian here, but I can't let this go without saying something. Jones has already taken us down this rabbit hole a little, but let me go a step further. If innocent babies go to heaven, why are conservative Christians against abortion? Abortion is like a one-way ticket to heaven for babies! If Christians really believe that, why aren't we setting up free abortion clinics and aborting even the healthiest babies? Sure, we will go to hell for murder, but wouldn't our sacrifice be worth it if it will ensure their place in heaven? I have had a few atheists mention this paradox to me and the absurdity is clear.

The Bible does have an answer, though it may not be the one we'd like to hear. It says that we are separated from God by our sins right from birth (Psalm 58:3), and that God's universal revelation, his creation, is a strong enough witness to condemn all of us. Because we can plainly see that God exists, we are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20).

The Bible explicitly declares that all have sinned (Romans 3:10-12, 23) and the whole world is held accountable for its sin (Romans 3:19-20). I find it hard to back up the "age of accountability" idea from the Bible. I just don't see it there. The hard truth is that every one of us stands condemned, and every one of us deserves hell.

Fortunately, God is gracious. He loves us and wants us to be with him in heaven. Salvation, in every shape and form, comes purely through grace. If the aborigine in Africa is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, not because he isn't accountable for his sin. If an aborted baby is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, and not because the child hasn't reached a certain level of maturity. These decisions are the Lord's to make.

Seethroo, I hope this doesn't look like I'm arguing with you. I'm sure you were factoring grace into the equation when you started talking about accountability. It is important to point out why grace makes a difference and where we would be without it.


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Joey, thanks for taking that where I didn't.

I didn't look at it like you were arguing. I appreciate the elaboration and accounting of Grace.


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Joey, I always look forward to your posts.

JoeyDay wrote:
Fortunately, God is gracious. He loves us and wants us to be with him in heaven. Salvation, in every shape and form, comes purely through grace. If the aborigine in Africa is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, not because he isn't accountable for his sin. If an aborted baby is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, and not because the child hasn't reached a certain level of maturity. These decisions are the Lord's to make.


Can you tell me, then, where I stand? Clearly I haven't "recieved Christ", don't see any evidence of any god around me (not an discussion I want to have right now), and, by Christian standards, I'm a sinner who has not repented. Then again, I'm not a bad person. If the roof falls down on me at this very moment, do I get a Grace pass, or not? I'm not trying to be egregious, here; I really want to know.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:26 pm 
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Wow. In the last couple days this thread has really taken off.

Here's my Belief-O-Matic scorecard:
1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (92%)
3. Seventh Day Adventist (91%)
4. Eastern Orthodox (89%)
5. Roman Catholic (89%)

I've taken this test several times. It was first given to me by a friend who scores 100% Unitarian Universalist.

Didymus wrote:
Belief-O-Matic? That doesn't even sound right.

I kindof take issue with the test, too. This test seems to put authority over truth-claims into my hands and not God's. By its very definition, truth is objective and absolute. There are not some things that are true for some people or at certain times. Truth is truth no matter how you slice it.

Anyway, this discussion has been fun so far. I hope no one has felt negative feelings while reading things (if you have, let me know). I think we've been fairly reasonable and understanding so far. Let's keep it up. You guys are great! :20x6:


Last edited by JoeyDay on Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:28 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Joey, I always look forward to your posts.

JoeyDay wrote:
Fortunately, God is gracious. He loves us and wants us to be with him in heaven. Salvation, in every shape and form, comes purely through grace. If the aborigine in Africa is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, not because he isn't accountable for his sin. If an aborted baby is to be saved, it will be through God's grace, and not because the child hasn't reached a certain level of maturity. These decisions are the Lord's to make.


Can you tell me, then, where I stand? Clearly I haven't "recieved Christ", don't see any evidence of any god around me (not an discussion I want to have right now), and, by Christian standards, I'm a sinner who has not repented. Then again, I'm not a bad person. If the roof falls down on me at this very moment, do I get a Grace pass, or not? I'm not trying to be egregious, here; I really want to know.


This is always hard to say, but there are good people in Hell. Good, but unsaved.

Josh.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:29 pm 
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But you know that some things you have done were wrong right? I hope you like heat........

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:31 pm 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
But you know that some things you have done were wrong right? I hope you like heat........


That's not what I was sayin'. Don't put words in my mouth.

Read it again. I never said "Anyone who's ever done anything wrong go to hell."


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