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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:38 pm 
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What you just said about good people in hell has a flip side, that portal goes both ways so can hitler jump through to heaven?

And how does one get saved? Is it a connection,or a willingness or what?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:51 pm 
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I'm a sinner. We all are. You are, Joey Day is, everyone. If a "bad" person is repentant and does what it takes to be saved, God has a place for him in Heaven.

Look in the bible, Jesus was crucified next to a thief, a murderer. He saw Jesus for who he was and asked to be in Heaven with him. Jesus said to him (paraphrased) "I tell you, tonight you will be with me in paradise."

To be saved, you have to confess your sins, repent, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

He's God's "Get outta jail free" Ticket.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:55 pm 
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I'm somewhat covered then, I pray for my sins everyday before I go to bed(because god knows being 14 you can rack up a lot in a day)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:56 pm 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
I'm somewhat covered then, I pray for my sins everyday before I go to bed(because god knows being 14 you can rack up a lot in a day)


LOL, I feel ya. Trust me, bein' 22 makes it no easier.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:00 pm 
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Location: Utah baby!
the belief o matic tells me I am

NEO PAGAN!!!!

rock on.

also
Unitarian Universalism
Liberal Quakers
Mahayana Buddhism
New Age
Hinduism
New Thought
Reform Judaism
Scientology
Secular Humanism


Scientology???? what the.....????

those folks are a little out there... even by my standards.

neo pagan. that cracks me up for some reason.

excuse me for a moment whilst I go find an animal to sacrifice....

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:04 pm 
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Agentseethrough said:

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lol being 22 an't that easy either


But, on top of life I have all these horomones running around in me telling to do all sorts of stuff that is a little nasty.
And at least you can *cough*..Tame the beast..*cough*

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Last edited by Prof. Tor Coolguy on Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:05 pm 
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Zooropa wrote:
excuse me for a moment whilst I go find an animal to sacrifice....


Zooropa, please refrain from making offensive, uninformed comments in this forum. Thanks.

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Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:59 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Can you tell me, then, where I stand? Clearly I haven't "recieved Christ", don't see any evidence of any god around me (not an discussion I want to have right now), and, by Christian standards, I'm a sinner who has not repented. Then again, I'm not a bad person. If the roof falls down on me at this very moment, do I get a Grace pass, or not? I'm not trying to be egregious, here; I really want to know.

First off, let me say that this is an extremely delicate subject. I feel as though I've been put on the spot, but I would like to answer your question as honestly as I can. I like you, Jones. I wish I could say something more positive than what I'm about to say, but I feel bound by the truth to say these things.

Do you realize how you've contradicted yourself above? (1) "I'm a sinner who has not repented" and (2) "I'm not a bad person". I'm more apt to conclude you believe statement #2 because you prefaced statement #1 with the phrase "by Christian standards".

By many peoples' standards, you may indeed by a "good" person. You may be a better person than many of your neighbors, and if you tallied up all your good deeds, they may outweigh your sins. Unfortunately, this is not how God determines things. God's standard is perfection. If you have violated God's law even once, you are a bad person by God's standard.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't have a leg to stand on here. I can't say I'm a better person than you are. The Bible says that we are all sinners. I'm no better than the next guy. In fact I may be worse in a lot of ways.

JoeyDay wrote:
These decisions are the Lord's to make.

It's not my decision whether you will be in heaven or hell, and ultimately my thoughts on this matter are worthless. The Bible tells us we shouldn't make these kinds of judgement calls, but it does provide us with some external evidences that saved people should manifest.

When a person is saved, the Holy Spirit will dwell in their heart. The Spirit creates within that person certain character traits (Galatians 5:22-23).

In addition, the Spirit gives spiritual gifts to saved persons. There are several different lists of spiritual gifts in the Bible (Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, 28; Ephesians 4:11; and 1 Peter 4:10-11). These gifts do not manifest themselves as simple natural abilities, but seem to be heightened and in some cases supernatural. In any event, they will probably be new abilities that the person did not have until after they accepted the Lord. A spiritual gift is a fairly sure manifestation that a person is saved.

I can't look for these chacter traits or spiritual gifts in your life because I've never met you IRL. All I can really go off of is what you've told me. The Bible also tells us that a saved person will confess publicly that Jesus is their Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9-10). Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby men can be saved (Acts 4:12). People who think they are "good people" and who are trusting in their own goodness to save them are probably not saved.

As difficult as it is for me to say this, Jones. I don't see any evidence of salvation in your life. I'm forced to conclude personally (and quite myopically) that you aren't saved, and that you will be condemned to hell on judgement day.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:11 pm 
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In response to Upsilion, I truly believe that the Bible is True, that Homosexualality is wrong, and CHRISTmas I truly intended only for people who believe. However I like you sinners but your beliefs are stupid to me.

The Bible says "hate the sin but love the sinner".


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:14 pm 
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Well, okay. So I guess I misinterpreted your other post.

JoeyDay wrote:
If the aborigine in Africa is to be saved, it will be through God's grace...


I guess I interpreted this as meaning that if the hypothetical bushman who never had a chance to learn about Jesus is good, he might still have a chance to go to heaven "by the grace of God". I interpreted wrong, then.

I guess I'm pretty confounded by the whole topic. I mean, I'm not afraid of going to hell, but I sure feel sorry for the bushman who never even had a chance. At least I've got a chance, y'know? But if I had been born in the jungle and never went more than 10 miles from my village and didn't have the divine luck (<-- irony) to be stumbled upon by a missionary who could offer me salvation... man, what a lousy way to go.

Now, what am I misinterpreting this time? I've got to be missing something, right?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:16 pm 
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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
I like you sinners but your beliefs are stupid to me.


fahooglewitz, if you're not here to further your own understanding of others' beliefs and vice versa, then please leave this topic. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:21 pm 
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Jones, I don't mind which religion (or not) that you have, so long as you don't belittle my beliefs (not that you were).
I'm just trying to Inform people about my religion.


Last edited by fahooglewitz1077 on Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:30 pm 
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fahooglewitz1077 wrote:
Jones, I don't mind which religion (or not) that you have, so long as you don't belittle my beliefs (not that you were).


So I can't belittle yours, but you can belittle all of ours? That's a double standard, and as a power-hungry moderator :angry:, I don't have to tolerate it in this forum.

By the way, I did read your post before you edited it, and I do not appreciate your remark. But you get a half-point for changing it.

You get the other half of that point by never again making disparraging remarks about others' beliefs in this forum.

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Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:50 pm 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
Now, what am I misinterpreting this time? I've got to be missing something, right?

Well, this is where my judgement and the Lord's judgement may differ radically. By my feeble attempts to discern your position with God, I've concluded in the negative.

However, God will "have mercy on whom [he] will have mercy" (Romans 9:15-16). The Lord may choose to have mercy on you though there be ZERO outward manifestations of regeneration (being born-again) in your life. It's up to him, and he is gracious, but I wouldn't recommend going through life denying him and banking on his graciousness in the end.

The Bible is fairly clear that if God is working in a person's life there should be some form of external manifestation, and that's all I have to go on. The Lord searches much deeper than we can (which in a lot of ways is kinda scary) and he knows whether or not you are one of his elect.

I've determined, by what little evidence is available to me, that you aren't one of his elect, but I'm sure he knows many more things than I do. Ultimately it's a judgement call between you and him.

Do you feel him working in your life? Would you like to feel him working in your life? Have you ever called out to him and asked him to come into your life? Maybe you have. I don't know because I'm completely unfamiliar with your past. If you've called out to him, and he has begun a good work in you, then he will complete it (Phillipians 1:6).

The aborigine who has never read the Bible may be drawn to God by the beauty of the world around him. Ultimately, this draw will come from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may convict the man of his sins and of his standing before God, and he might be led to accept God's saving work in his life. If he does this, he will be saved, but not by his own efforts. He will be saved because God has drawn the man to himself by his grace. There will be many other aborigines who will die in their sins because they have never cried out to God for forgiveness.

The same is true of you. If you will call on the name of the Lord and confess your sins and repent, you will be saved by God's grace.

Sorry if this has been unclear. I'm sweating bullets over here worrying about how you're taking all this, and because of that I'm probably not being as careful with my words as I usually am. I really don't want to offend you, but I'm worried that taking offense is the only response you could have to half the stuff I'm saying. :-S


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:17 am 
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JoeyDay wrote:
The Bible is fairly clear that if God is working in a person's life there should be some form of external manifestation, and that's all I have to go on. The Lord searches much deeper than we can (which in a lot of ways is kinda scary) and he knows whether or not you are one of his elect.


Okay, so does this mean that whether or not I'm "one of his elect" has already been determined by God? I guess a better question would be, if I'm not currently one of his elect, is there any way that might turn around?

Quote:
The aborigine who has never read the Bible may be drawn to God by the beauty of the world around him. Ultimately, this draw will come from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may convict the man of his sins and of his standing before God, and he might be led to accept God's saving work in his life. If he does this, he will be saved, but not by his own efforts. He will be saved because God has drawn the man to himself by his grace.


Okay, so this makes me feel a little less nervous for our friend the hypothetical bushman. But where does Jesus fit into this? I've always been under the impression that Jesus, specifically, was an integral part of being saved. And sure, God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are One, but if the man feels the Holy Spirit as you describe but never learns about Jesus in particular (I mean, I've never heard of any tribes of aborigines having been discovered who seemed spontaneously to know about Jesus via contact with the Holy Spirit). I guess these questions might be beyond the scope of today's lesson, what with Mysterious Ways and all.

Sub-question: How do denominations fit into all of this?

You needn't worry about how I'm taking all of this, Joey. I won't take it personally. I love to learn about people's beliefs, and it's truly a treasure when I find someone who has thought out and can their beliefs as well as you, and when I find such a treasure, I usually try to milk it for what it's worth. I often say that I envy religious people, because they have this sense of certainty that I lack, and that I may never have. I don't discount the existence of a god any more than I am sure of one. I'm a fence-sitter, and some day I hope I'll be certain of something, but for now I am not and I'm as content as one can be when they've realized they don't know anything. Trouble with this fence is that there aren't two sides, there are infinitely many.

Hrm, I wish I still had that essay on Pascal's Wager.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:25 am 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
By the way, I did read your post before you edited it, and I do not appreciate your remark. But you get a half-point for changing it.

It makes me so curious to ask what the remark was...

And to fahoolegley, this is the remark that went over the edge:
Quote:
CHRISTmas I truly intended only for people who believe. However I like you sinners but your beliefs are stupid to me.

Com'on man, STUPID? That's not very ladylike. You're kinda killing your argument there.

JoeyDay, wow. You talk about eternal damnation so sensitively, and I don't know how to feel about that. Joey, tho, I must say, you seem to have a Christian maturity that I admire; I certainly was never like that as a Christian. You make it look so..um...rational.

EDIT: the asterisk denotes "sending a person to that awful awful place" and got censored.


Last edited by lumberpeg vegeplank on Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:30 am 
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I'm Jewish

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:31 am 
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Yay for diversity. Welcome to the conversation, Zoldor.

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Jordan, you are THE SUCK at kissing! YAY! Just thought you should know! Rainbows! Sunshine!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:35 am 
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I apologize to those offended.
I'm kind of in a breakdown due to a Divorce.
Please accept my apology.
Anydangway,
My religious affiliation is United Methodist.

[EDIT: Merlin here is umm...I guess since he was Middle Ages he was the Church of England.]

BTW, I have a Jew freind so I respect Jews (along with everybody else).


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:45 am 
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Actually, he would have more likely been a pagan converted to Roman Catholicism. The Church of England didn't start until the time of Henry VIII.

Divorce, huh? That must be terribly distressing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:46 am 
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Didymus wrote:
Divorce, huh? That must be terribly distressing

Oh you wouldn't believe. It's terribly stressing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:49 am 
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It puts you under a lot of pressure, huh?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:51 am 
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Oh, yes.
I cry :(( a lot


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:54 am 
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A lot of pain, too. If it was me, it'd probably eat me up inside.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:57 am 
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I hear that if you wern't born of a jewish mother then you are not jewish, is that true?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:57 am 
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It DOES eat you up.
Fortunately, my faith is helping me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:04 am 
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Christ be with you through this, Fahooglewitz. He knows your suffering (Matt 26:36-46).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:05 am 
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Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:32 am 
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InterruptorJones wrote:
You get the other half of that point by never again making disparraging remarks about others' beliefs in this forum.


Unless those beliefs belong to Jack Chick or Fred Phelps. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:37 am 
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By the way, fahooglewitz, you did not respond to my previous post regarding the points about homosexuality. (Actually, after InterruptorJones responded to it, it kinda got ignored...) You'll probably find it on the previous page of this thread. I still await your response.


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